I recently recieved a PM from our own "iluvsns" asking about the new more "rocky" sounding songs we're doing on the Ceiling Fan. I'd like if you'd all give your opinions on this too. I'll enclose the conversations so far in a spoiler.
Re: Rock Music
Sent: Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:12 pm
by Jesus_Minime
Well, first of all, Debating, When done between two people in total respect and carefulness not to become rude or arrogant, is a very healthy activity. It challenges both parties to test what they believe and make sure that what they believe truly is solid.
Now, on to talking about what you were saying.
I'm a fully filled with the holy spirit evangelist. I travel around the US and Canada nearly 9 months every years preaching the gospel and leading in worship to thousands of people each year. I've seen thousands of people on their knees, totally being set free by Gods awesome power. I've been on the streets witnessing to people barely sober enough to hear the word "Jesus" coming out of my mouth. I love God with all my heart, and I try to accomplish his will in everything I do.
I've experienced everything you've just talked about, in a setting of "old" music, and "modern" music. I also go to a campt every year along with about 10 of my closest friends and we go to church every day to draw close to God. We do that through good teaching as well as music. Now, the music isn't limited to "rock" music, but I will explain why we do that type of music as well. There is a difference between giving God Praise, and Worship. Giving God Praise, is (from my understanding) becoming excited about gods word, and promises and proclaiming them to him and the people around us through singing and dancing. Worship (also, in my understanding) is A much more deep level, were we truly seek to know God more. We ask God to cleanse our hearts, and basically, hang out with him in prayer and song. We often use more up-beat songs in praise, Dancing and praising God. It says many times in the Bible how God loves it when his children dance for him.
"I have seen the power of God demonstrated at this camp in some phenomenal ways. Not through what modern churches use, the drums and singing designed to hype people into a state of "worship", but rather through untrained singers and simple
piano and organ music. I've seen people weeping, running the aisles, praising God, and kneeling at the wooden altar to find true salvation."
Yes, I do believe that there are some Christians that may only go to the church for the music. To enjoy it. But, I know for a fact that there is more than just being in a "state of worship" in such services. We are praising God, through our music, and proclaiming his truth. How in any way could that be something that is not honorable to God? You still have not proven to me in any way that a style of music can be evil. And I see no law in the bible prohibiting anything even remotely similar. But, I do know that I've experienced God's holy spirit. Not just in these kinds of services, I've been to church in many denominations (as I've said, I tour around quite a bit), I know that God loves it when we praise him in many kinds of songs, because I've felt his presence in both environments.
"We do NOT need to emulate the Rock style to get the Gospel across. I have seen people from the roughest of backgrounds, brought on their knees and
saved. When we stoop to copying carnal styles to try to evangelize the lost, not only do we not save them, we further confuse them into believing that when their heart is pounding while the rock music plays, that they are feeling God's presence. I've been in that prescence and God's presence dwells in that simple music, and I will have nothing to do with "pasting" Jesus' Holy Name into wicked music styles. It not only deceives the listener, it saddens God."
Again, there is no Biblical point of view to tell me that there is such thing as a "wicked" style of music. Also, A true believer will know the difference between Gods spirit, and pounding beats. Loud music will not change your life, Jesus will. Can Christs message be communicated through louder music? Of course. Why would it not be able to?
Just so you know, I am not saying every type of music must be associated with God. But what we use to worship God must also please God.
Yes, and I believe with all my heart that God is pleased with the music I play for him.
"Man looks at the outer appearance, but God looks at the heart"
God Knows my intentions, he knows why I sing. He knows when my heart isn't in it, or is. He knows everything.
Thanks again for taking the time to discuss this with me. I look forward to your reply
- Garrett Vandenberg
Re: Rock Music
Sent: Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:39 pm
by iluvsns
Hey...
I've been thinking about your message a lot since I got it....
Instead of trying to refute your arguments and just getting into more debate, Ive decided to just speak from my heart.
We have a church camp we go to several times a year. (don't worry, I'll get back to Rock, just hang on.) Its not a camp like people typically think of, with fishing and hiking trails, but it's a place where we have 3 church services a day, and draw closer to our Lord.
I have seen the power of God demonstrated at this camp in some phenomenal ways. Not through what modern churches use, the drums and singing designed to hype people into a state of "worship", but rather through untrained singers and simple
piano and organ music. I've seen people weeping, running the aisles, praising God, and kneeling at the wooden altar to find true salvation.
This is real. We do NOT need to emulate the Rock style to get the Gospel across. I have seen people from the roughest of backgrounds, brought on their knees and
saved. When we stoop to copying carnal styles to try to evangelize the lost, not only do we not save them, we further confuse them into believing that when their heart is pounding while the rock music plays, that they are feeling God's presence. I've been in that prescence and God's prescence dwells in that simple music, and I will have nothing to do with "pasting" Jesus' Holy Name into wicked music styles. It not only deceives the listener, it saddens God.
Just so you know, I am not saying every type of music must be associated with God. But what we use to worship God must also please God.
God Bless,
Lee
Re: Rock Music
Sent: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:45 pm
by Jesus_Minime
Well, I believe this has sparked what I hope will be quite an interesting conversation for both of us
Ok, so I'm going to try to quote everything I'm responding to so as to keep this from getting too confusing.
"the Bible speaks of music in Heaven. Do you believe we will be jamming with a rock band on the streets of gold? I cannot even imagine such a thing."
Haha, well Personally, as a professional musician, I'd like to be playing all genres of music in heaven, including rock. But coming at it from a strictly biblical point of view, I can't see anything that would restrict this. I imagine everything in heaven will seem kind of weird comparing it to here. the whole concept of music could be entirely different.
"There's a chapter called "Strange Fire" that speaks of all the demonic things going on in rock bands, such as Aerosmith, The Beatles, Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, Michael Jackson, Meatloaf, The Rolling Stones, The Who, and even more. The things described about each are deeply disturbing. Rock is heavily associated with all the bands I just mentioned, so if we as Christians really believe we can worship God and still be directly involved in performing music that has its roots in the worship of God's enemy-satan, that is a deep tragedy."
Yes, I see your point there. There are spirits at the root of nearly everything we do, including certain bands. But notice, I say "Bands" not "styles of music". As is stated in our FAQ section on TCF, There are evil types of lyrics and spirits in all genre of music, not just rock. Now, does that mean that music itself is demonic? Of course not. It simply means that there are certain songs, and bands that we as Christians need to steer clear of. I don't believe any certain style of music can be deemed "evil", in the same way that that it's impossible for books, or even the internet to be deemed evil simply because some websites, or books promote and even teach evil things. There are plenty of evil fantasy stories that I don't believe Christians have any business reading, but there are also many fantasy stories that are great for teaching biblical truths, and even based on the word of God.
Also, I have heard of that book before. But, as far as I know, it concludes that we can in fact, "rock" the gospel.
One last thought, Lets say, music at the heart of it all WAS created for evil. (although we both know it wasn't, but just hypothetically speaking)
Wouldn't it be great if we could use something that was created for evil, to accomplish something good? To counter that evil from the past, with something Godly?
Rock Music
Sent: Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:48 pm
by iluvsns
I'm actually glad you asked. And I don't want to come across as harsh, but rock music is something I am against- passionately so.
To start off with, Rock has it's roots deeply into the occult. I have been very recently reading the book "Can We Rock the Gospel?" It is speaking of rock's influence in our churches. It really disturbs me, but it's helping me see why rock is not something Christians can be involved in. There's a chapter called "Strange Fire" that speaks of all the demonic things going on in rock bands, such as Aerosmith, The Beatles, Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, Michael Jackson, Meatloaf, The Rolling Stones, The Who, and even more. The things described about each are deeply disturbing. Rock is heavily associated with all the bands I just mentioned, so if we as Christians really believe we can worship God and still be directly involved in performing music that has its roots in the worship of God's enemy-satan, that is a deep tragedy. I highly suggest you check out this book, if possible. I'd like you to hear what it has to say. One last question, the Bible speaks of music in Heaven. Do you believe we will be jamming with a rock band on the streets of gold? I cannot even imagine such a thing.
God Bless,
iluvsns
Here is a picture of the book if you're interested.
And please write back.
Sent: Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:04 pm
by Jesus_Minime
Hey there,
First of all, thanks for your feedback. we always like to hear from fans about the show. Especially me, The ceiling fan is my favorite thing to talk about. Now as for the messages we are sending in the podcast: I'd like to ask (in all respect) What exactly is wrong with playing rock music professionally?
Re: The Ceiling Fan
Sent: Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:51 pm
by iluvsns
Hey,
For what I'm about to say, please don't take it the wrong way.
I think you guys are incredibly creative and talented, but while listening to your latest episode, I skipped past the rock concert. If I may be perfectly honest, I know that those styles of music are not right. I know you guys aren't seriously in a band or anything, but do you think it's right to send that pro-rock message to the people listening to you guy's podcast?
Again, it's just a question, and I'm not upset, so please don't think that I am. I think all of you are doing a great job. I'm not trying to cause a problem.
God Bless,
iluvsns
Sent: Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:12 pm
by Jesus_Minime
Well, first of all, Debating, When done between two people in total respect and carefulness not to become rude or arrogant, is a very healthy activity. It challenges both parties to test what they believe and make sure that what they believe truly is solid.
Now, on to talking about what you were saying.
I'm a fully filled with the holy spirit evangelist. I travel around the US and Canada nearly 9 months every years preaching the gospel and leading in worship to thousands of people each year. I've seen thousands of people on their knees, totally being set free by Gods awesome power. I've been on the streets witnessing to people barely sober enough to hear the word "Jesus" coming out of my mouth. I love God with all my heart, and I try to accomplish his will in everything I do.
I've experienced everything you've just talked about, in a setting of "old" music, and "modern" music. I also go to a campt every year along with about 10 of my closest friends and we go to church every day to draw close to God. We do that through good teaching as well as music. Now, the music isn't limited to "rock" music, but I will explain why we do that type of music as well. There is a difference between giving God Praise, and Worship. Giving God Praise, is (from my understanding) becoming excited about gods word, and promises and proclaiming them to him and the people around us through singing and dancing. Worship (also, in my understanding) is A much more deep level, were we truly seek to know God more. We ask God to cleanse our hearts, and basically, hang out with him in prayer and song. We often use more up-beat songs in praise, Dancing and praising God. It says many times in the Bible how God loves it when his children dance for him.
"I have seen the power of God demonstrated at this camp in some phenomenal ways. Not through what modern churches use, the drums and singing designed to hype people into a state of "worship", but rather through untrained singers and simple
piano and organ music. I've seen people weeping, running the aisles, praising God, and kneeling at the wooden altar to find true salvation."
Yes, I do believe that there are some Christians that may only go to the church for the music. To enjoy it. But, I know for a fact that there is more than just being in a "state of worship" in such services. We are praising God, through our music, and proclaiming his truth. How in any way could that be something that is not honorable to God? You still have not proven to me in any way that a style of music can be evil. And I see no law in the bible prohibiting anything even remotely similar. But, I do know that I've experienced God's holy spirit. Not just in these kinds of services, I've been to church in many denominations (as I've said, I tour around quite a bit), I know that God loves it when we praise him in many kinds of songs, because I've felt his presence in both environments.
"We do NOT need to emulate the Rock style to get the Gospel across. I have seen people from the roughest of backgrounds, brought on their knees and
saved. When we stoop to copying carnal styles to try to evangelize the lost, not only do we not save them, we further confuse them into believing that when their heart is pounding while the rock music plays, that they are feeling God's presence. I've been in that prescence and God's presence dwells in that simple music, and I will have nothing to do with "pasting" Jesus' Holy Name into wicked music styles. It not only deceives the listener, it saddens God."
Again, there is no Biblical point of view to tell me that there is such thing as a "wicked" style of music. Also, A true believer will know the difference between Gods spirit, and pounding beats. Loud music will not change your life, Jesus will. Can Christs message be communicated through louder music? Of course. Why would it not be able to?
Just so you know, I am not saying every type of music must be associated with God. But what we use to worship God must also please God.
Yes, and I believe with all my heart that God is pleased with the music I play for him.
"Man looks at the outer appearance, but God looks at the heart"
God Knows my intentions, he knows why I sing. He knows when my heart isn't in it, or is. He knows everything.
Thanks again for taking the time to discuss this with me. I look forward to your reply
- Garrett Vandenberg
Re: Rock Music
Sent: Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:39 pm
by iluvsns
Hey...
I've been thinking about your message a lot since I got it....
Instead of trying to refute your arguments and just getting into more debate, Ive decided to just speak from my heart.
We have a church camp we go to several times a year. (don't worry, I'll get back to Rock, just hang on.) Its not a camp like people typically think of, with fishing and hiking trails, but it's a place where we have 3 church services a day, and draw closer to our Lord.
I have seen the power of God demonstrated at this camp in some phenomenal ways. Not through what modern churches use, the drums and singing designed to hype people into a state of "worship", but rather through untrained singers and simple
piano and organ music. I've seen people weeping, running the aisles, praising God, and kneeling at the wooden altar to find true salvation.
This is real. We do NOT need to emulate the Rock style to get the Gospel across. I have seen people from the roughest of backgrounds, brought on their knees and
saved. When we stoop to copying carnal styles to try to evangelize the lost, not only do we not save them, we further confuse them into believing that when their heart is pounding while the rock music plays, that they are feeling God's presence. I've been in that prescence and God's prescence dwells in that simple music, and I will have nothing to do with "pasting" Jesus' Holy Name into wicked music styles. It not only deceives the listener, it saddens God.
Just so you know, I am not saying every type of music must be associated with God. But what we use to worship God must also please God.
God Bless,
Lee
Re: Rock Music
Sent: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:45 pm
by Jesus_Minime
Well, I believe this has sparked what I hope will be quite an interesting conversation for both of us
Ok, so I'm going to try to quote everything I'm responding to so as to keep this from getting too confusing.
"the Bible speaks of music in Heaven. Do you believe we will be jamming with a rock band on the streets of gold? I cannot even imagine such a thing."
Haha, well Personally, as a professional musician, I'd like to be playing all genres of music in heaven, including rock. But coming at it from a strictly biblical point of view, I can't see anything that would restrict this. I imagine everything in heaven will seem kind of weird comparing it to here. the whole concept of music could be entirely different.
"There's a chapter called "Strange Fire" that speaks of all the demonic things going on in rock bands, such as Aerosmith, The Beatles, Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, Michael Jackson, Meatloaf, The Rolling Stones, The Who, and even more. The things described about each are deeply disturbing. Rock is heavily associated with all the bands I just mentioned, so if we as Christians really believe we can worship God and still be directly involved in performing music that has its roots in the worship of God's enemy-satan, that is a deep tragedy."
Yes, I see your point there. There are spirits at the root of nearly everything we do, including certain bands. But notice, I say "Bands" not "styles of music". As is stated in our FAQ section on TCF, There are evil types of lyrics and spirits in all genre of music, not just rock. Now, does that mean that music itself is demonic? Of course not. It simply means that there are certain songs, and bands that we as Christians need to steer clear of. I don't believe any certain style of music can be deemed "evil", in the same way that that it's impossible for books, or even the internet to be deemed evil simply because some websites, or books promote and even teach evil things. There are plenty of evil fantasy stories that I don't believe Christians have any business reading, but there are also many fantasy stories that are great for teaching biblical truths, and even based on the word of God.
Also, I have heard of that book before. But, as far as I know, it concludes that we can in fact, "rock" the gospel.
One last thought, Lets say, music at the heart of it all WAS created for evil. (although we both know it wasn't, but just hypothetically speaking)
Wouldn't it be great if we could use something that was created for evil, to accomplish something good? To counter that evil from the past, with something Godly?
Rock Music
Sent: Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:48 pm
by iluvsns
I'm actually glad you asked. And I don't want to come across as harsh, but rock music is something I am against- passionately so.
To start off with, Rock has it's roots deeply into the occult. I have been very recently reading the book "Can We Rock the Gospel?" It is speaking of rock's influence in our churches. It really disturbs me, but it's helping me see why rock is not something Christians can be involved in. There's a chapter called "Strange Fire" that speaks of all the demonic things going on in rock bands, such as Aerosmith, The Beatles, Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, Michael Jackson, Meatloaf, The Rolling Stones, The Who, and even more. The things described about each are deeply disturbing. Rock is heavily associated with all the bands I just mentioned, so if we as Christians really believe we can worship God and still be directly involved in performing music that has its roots in the worship of God's enemy-satan, that is a deep tragedy. I highly suggest you check out this book, if possible. I'd like you to hear what it has to say. One last question, the Bible speaks of music in Heaven. Do you believe we will be jamming with a rock band on the streets of gold? I cannot even imagine such a thing.
God Bless,
iluvsns
Here is a picture of the book if you're interested.
And please write back.
Sent: Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:04 pm
by Jesus_Minime
Hey there,
First of all, thanks for your feedback. we always like to hear from fans about the show. Especially me, The ceiling fan is my favorite thing to talk about. Now as for the messages we are sending in the podcast: I'd like to ask (in all respect) What exactly is wrong with playing rock music professionally?
Re: The Ceiling Fan
Sent: Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:51 pm
by iluvsns
Hey,
For what I'm about to say, please don't take it the wrong way.
I think you guys are incredibly creative and talented, but while listening to your latest episode, I skipped past the rock concert. If I may be perfectly honest, I know that those styles of music are not right. I know you guys aren't seriously in a band or anything, but do you think it's right to send that pro-rock message to the people listening to you guy's podcast?
Again, it's just a question, and I'm not upset, so please don't think that I am. I think all of you are doing a great job. I'm not trying to cause a problem.
God Bless,
iluvsns
