QnA Evolution

[Blitz]

Yes the Bible does it is just that you have put on the glasses of an evolutionistic point of view changing what I say. Give me one evidence that proves evolution is true and one evidence that proves young earth is false.

[Christian A.]

That is a very interesting account.

Do you know if the Habacuc mentioned in the chapter is the same one as wrote the book of the Bible, Habakkuk, under a different spelling?

[John Chrysostom]

Conquestor: I'm not coming for an evolutionary viewpoint though, I'd say that they haven't proven we all evolved from monkeys and I don't think they ever will, I think the case could be made as far as animals evolving. But our main disagreement comes from old earth versus young earth.

I'd say that the similarities in genetics between species seems to lend credibility to the evolution side. As for young earth I'd say the radiation dating and star light seems to disprove the fact that the earth is only 6,000 years old.

Christian: Yes I do believe it is the same one.

[Blitz]

Yes but the timeline is the main problem. Star light can questioned and the radiation doens't fit. It will say this type of animal came around at this time yet one of it will have an earlier date or later date.

[John Chrysostom]

Well we're kind of going around in circles at this point since as I've said I'm in no way convinced by AIG's "debunking" of radiation dating and I think the movement of animal dates is good science and shows a certain amount of intellectual honesty by being willing to admit mistakes and make changes. So I'll let some other people ask some questions, all though this thread really should be renamed Q&A Young Earth Creationist.

[Blitz]

But I would like to make a statement. Millions of people have died because of evolution. Communism, Socialism, and Nazism used it to justify their beliefs. Aboriginanis were killed because they were thought to be lower and put in museums. Children are told evolution is completely true but it isn't. People have been neutered because their children would supposedly be bad. Uthenatia is advocated by evolution.

[John Chrysostom]

Whoa, I think that's a great overstatement and seriously needs to be toned down. Communism and Nazism were not caused by belief in evolution, they were caused by the evil in men's hearts. Native American's were killed by Christians who didn't believe in evolution. To subscribe a belief in evolution as the cause of those horrible acts is I believe faulty logic. I think it's an exaggeration and in no way means that a Young Earth view is the only right view.

[bookworm]

Communism and Nazism were not caused by belief in evolution, they were caused by the evil in men's hearts.

I believe he was referring to the attempts to weed out ‘faulty’ races. That’s a somewhat evolutionary idea.

[John Chrysostom]

Well that's an important distinction, inspired or caused by evolutionary beliefs or used to justify actions are two very different things. The Bible has been used to justify terrible actions too, not as many as I would argue, but we can't pretend that Christian history is spotless. But using them to justify actions seems to indicate that those actions would have been taken regardless.

[Blitz]

Communism believes that they need to kill the middle class for the human race to complete the last evovling process to perfection. Nazism claimed Jews were of a lower evolution so they need to be gotten rid of. And I am not taking about the natives of America but the natives of Australia, unknown to most they were killed and taken to museum because they were supposedly a lower race.

[bookworm]

Well that's an important distinction, inspired or caused by evolutionary beliefs or used to justify actions are two very different things.

Very true. Which do you think it was then?
(I realize this is off topic, but it’s a worthwhile subject.)

[Blitz]

Both they were inspired and caused by and if you want to be a serious evolutionist you actually must kill useless people because Evolution believes in survival of the fittest.

[bookworm]

Both they were inspired and caused by

Those are actually the same instance.
Ayn was dividing the possibilities into these two: ‘inspired/caused by’ or ‘used to justify’

In other words, was Hitler inspired by the ideas of evolution and, based on them, decided to try to help it along?
Or was he going to kill all those people anyway, and later used the evolutionary idea as reasoning to justify it to others?

[Blitz]

No he started out using the theory of evolution as his campaign plan. He did not use it to justify. Stalin and Lenin campaigned with it also.

[John Chrysostom]

Communism believes that they need to kill the middle class for the human race to complete the last evovling process to perfection.

Okay that is not what Communism believes at all, have you ever read Marx?

I think that Hitler, Stalin, and Lenin all wanted power and they used whatever they could to justify their actions. They would have killed whoever to achieve their goals.

[bookworm]

I think that Hitler, Stalin, and Lenin all wanted power and they used whatever they could to justify their actions. They would have killed whoever to achieve their goals.

And then used evolution as convenient ‘reasoning’ after the fact?

[Blitz]

I know communism doesn't believe exactly what I said but that is the picture. The only way for them they say to make a perfect world is to eliminate the middle class. And I have read a little of Marx. Marx used evolution to fulfill his goal. An perfect world after a dictatorship to purge out the middle class.

[John Chrysostom]

Yes, I believe so, I think that if evolution hadn't been around another reason would have been used. To use the example of Nazi Germany specifically I would argue that Martin Luther's writings on Judaism could have easily been used: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies

I mean to be perfectly honest Martin Luther's ideas sound eerily close to what the Nazis did and there's no way to claim his ideas came from evolution.

Marx said that the only way to make a perfect world was to eliminate all class not by killing the middle class or Proletarians as he would say but by taking the means of production out of the hands of the Proletarians and make the means of production a common good.

[bookworm]

Yes, I believe so, I think that if evolution hadn't been around another reason would have been used.

So you don’t think Hitler ever really believed he was ‘improving’ the evolution process?

[Blitz]

And actually that would be the middle class he hatd. Yep he thought that he was getting rid of the 'unfit'