PHC - Questions Answered

[Lee]

*pops in*

odysseyfan1 is correct with everything he has said so far.

*pops out before she gets hit by flying objects*

[odysseyfan1]

The Bible doesn't say just not to get drunk. I've quoted it already, and I'll do it again. "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." That verse sounds like God wants us to stay away from alcohol altogether, don't you think?

No because being deceived by drink means getting drunk. If it meant ‘don’t drink at all’ it would have said that. But instead it has that modifier.

When I have time I’m going to type up a better explanation on tongues that will hopefully make things clearer, but in the meantime can you please answer this odysseyfan1?

It depends on what odysseyfan1is meaning by ‘wrong’ and ‘convict’ in this discussion.
If by wrong he means they are sinful, then you’re right it makes no sense to say it’s wrong for them but not for others. Sin is sin whether you’re convicted of it or not.
But if he means wrong just as potentially harmful (like distracting from God or something) then I can understand what he’s saying. It’s wrong for them because they want to focus more clearly on God, but it may not be wrong for others personally because it’s not, strictly speaking, sinful.

Being deceived means being deceived, not drunk. What I mean is if God tells you not to do it, and you do anyway, then it's sin I'm sorry, but I cannot explain it much better than that. It's not wrong until God tells you.

[StrongNChrist]

Remind me where you got that verse, odysseyfan1? Please.

[odysseyfan1]

Christians have always been against alcohol, that's pretty basic.

That is just not accurate. For the first 1,800 years of the Church, all Christians believed in drinking alcohol and all Christians drank alcohol at the Lord's Supper. That is simply historical fact. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_alcohol) Grape juice was not even invented until 1869.

The Bible doesn't say just not to get drunk. I've quoted it already, and I'll do it again. "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." That verse sounds like God wants us to stay away from alcohol altogether, don't you think?

What does this verse sound like?

"And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household," (Deuteronomy 14:26 KJV.)

Jeremy

Oh my word, I thought that most of the Church was mostly agreed that wine was wrong. I suppose I thought wrong. There are many verses that tell us not to drink. (I gave a list in an earlier post) It's been proven that Alcohol damages the body, the Bible says the body is a temple unto the Lord. Even if people used to drink, we know now what it does to you. Holiness preachers used to smoke too, but now they know better. Alcohol is addictive, addiction makes you a slave, that is wrong. Alcohol wastes money, talents, time, relationships, health...

-- 09 Mar 2011 11:00 pm --

In fact, to go on what Jeremy said, Catholics serve real wine for their communion.

Um, this will probably stir up a lot of controversy, but Catholics aren't Christians. Now I'm sure some of them are, but for goodness sake, they believe in purgatory, priests drinking (if I'm not mistaken), and saying Hail Mary's for their sins.

-- 09 Mar 2011 11:03 pm --

Christians have always been against alcohol, that's pretty basic.

That is just not accurate. For the first 1,800 years of the Church, all Christians believed in drinking alcohol and all Christians drank alcohol at the Lord's Supper. That is simply historical fact. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_alcohol) Grape juice was not even invented until 1869.

In early societies wine (albeit less-potent wine than we're used to seeing) was the staple drink because water was unsafe to drink. And even in modern society, in places like Germany, it's still normal for people to drink beer regularly.

EDIT: Oh, and I just have to say something about the speaking in tongues thing. I've grown up in a tongue-speaking family; there's no doubt in my mind that people speak in tongues, and they do it all the time. I know the verses and stuff, and when combined with what I've seen in my life I know that this is the real deal. (And it's true that unless you have someone to translate, speaking in tongues doesn't edify the church, but it edifies you. Or something like that.)

Also, don't judge a person by their denomination, judge them by their individual walk with God. Yeah, some Pentecostals put on a show, but there are others who are really on fire for God. Same goes with Catholics, Baptists, Mennonites, and whoever else, I'm sure.

Well, that's a whole different culture. The water isn't safe to drink, so obviously, I'm not going to judge them. And, it used to be less potent than it is now, as you said. So that can clear up the whole thing about Jesus and early Christians drinking.

-- 09 Mar 2011 11:05 pm --

More on wine and alcohol.
I didn’t read all of it, but it seems to cover everything we’ve been discussing.

To summarize, if you don’t want to read it all:
1) Biblical wine was not grape juice, it was fermented as it is today.
2) Consuming alcohol is not a sin, only over indulgence is.
3) The early Church did not teach that all alcohol is sinful, only that drunkenness is.

Hmmm...Who wrote all that?

[StrongNChrist]

Hate to correct you there, but yes Catholics are Christians. As much as anyone from any other denomination. If you accept Christ into your life it doesn't matter what denomination you're from, you're a Christian. It's not the church that you go to that makes you who you are. It's who you have inside of you.

And just to clarify, my mom was raised a Catholic. She became born again at a Catholic church. My boyfriend was raised Catholic as well. My pastor was led to the Lord through Catholics.

I mean, that's like saying Presbertains aren't Christians because for goodness sakes, they believe in speaking in tongues.
Or those who don't believe the eexact same as you....the PHC aren't Christians because for goodness sakes they don't believe in speaking in tongues and don't even like trimming hair even when it helps to keep it healthier.

To repeat what I just said in my first paragraph. It's not the denomination or building that makes a person a Christian. It's who's in them.
Yes, Catholics go a little extreme in what they believe. So do you guys. Doesn't make you wrong. Doesn't make them wrong. And might I remind you that the Catholic church was the original church.

And as for the purgatory I get how they believe that. After all, In one of Jesus' parables He did mention a place where Abraham was. And that parable was no ordinary parable. Most scholars and philosophers believe it was a true story because it was the one and only one He mentioned names.

[odysseyfan1]

This topic should seriously be moved to CCDS me thinks

Anyways, I read the front page of that article from Women's Heart Foundation and have a few things to point out addressing your earlier statements.

Drinking can damage the heart and can lead to high blood pressure.

As the site put it

Heavy drinking, particularly over time, can damage the heart and lead to high blood pressure,

That doesn't mean drinking in of itself leads to that. It means that heavy drinking can cause that. Not the type of drinking I'm talking about.

It contributes to hepatitis, cirrhosis, malnutrition, pancreatis, stomach ulcer, fetal alcohol syndrome, heart disease, and more! And that's just the effects on your own body!

You took the words on that site out of context, if I might point out. You took the list they gave you and automatically put it as effects on "your own body" as you phrased it. The site did not say "These things affect your body" for those lists. As I mentioned before fetal alchohol syndrome is something an unborn child will get if their mother is drinking while pregnant. It cannot be gotten any other way. And also it does not cause malnutrition - that comes from not eating right, enough, etc - but actually causes dehyrdation. And I have never heard it related to hepatitis or pancreatis. I have heard it related to cirrhosis of the liver and heart disease, but again that's from heavy drinking, binge drinking, etc and not the kind of drinking I am talking about.

Also, don't judge a person by their denomination, judge them by their individual walk with God. Yeah, some Pentecostals put on a show, but there are others who are really on fire for God. Same goes with Catholics, Baptists, Mennonites, and whoever else, I'm sure.

QFT

Well, I am talking about drinking in general. Moderate drinking can easily lead to heavy drinking. Why even start? And I have another question: when are you really drunk? Who's to say how much is really drunk. Read this: http://ehealthforum.com/health/topic30767.html

[StrongNChrist]

Each person has a certain amount of alchohol they can hold in their body before they get drunk. Drunk is when they have too much. it varies on each person. And no, it doesn't always lead to heavy drinking. That depends on the person and how much self control they have.
And it's hard to debate something when we aren't even talking about the exact same thing You're talking drinking in general. I'm talking moderate drinking. Because that's the only drinking I'm not against.

And just for the record, priests are forbidden to drink outside of special occations and the communion.


And sorry about my earlier post if it offended you or anything. I don't like it when people accuse a denomination of not being Christians, especially Catholics, because of what denomination they are.

and I'd still appreciate the verse for that. I don't really want to go looking through the past 4 pages for it. Please.

[odysseyfan1]

Hate to correct you there, but yes Catholics are Christians. As much as anyone from any other denomination. If you accept Christ into your life it doesn't matter what denomination you're from, you're a Christian. It's not the church that you go to that makes you who you are. It's who you have inside of you.

And just to clarify, my mom was raised a Catholic. She became born again at a Catholic church. My boyfriend was raised Catholic as well. My pastor was led to the Lord through Catholics.

I mean, that's like saying Presbertains aren't Christians because for goodness sakes, they believe in speaking in tongues.
Or those who don't believe the eexact same as you....the PHC aren't Christians because for goodness sakes they don't believe in speaking in tongues and don't even like trimming hair even when it helps to keep it healthier.

To repeat what I just said in my first paragraph. It's not the denomination or building that makes a person a Christian. It's who's in them.
Yes, Catholics go a little extreme in what they believe. So do you guys. Doesn't make you wrong. Doesn't make them wrong. And might I remind you that the Catholic church was the original church.

And as for the purgatory I get how they believe that. After all, In one of Jesus' parables He did mention a place where Abraham was. And that parable was no ordinary parable. Most scholars and philosophers believe it was a true story because it was the one and only one He mentioned names.

The Catholic religion is not the Christian religion. As I said, some of them are, but not all. We do not judge you because you trim your hair. It's just something that we do not do, and something we require of our members. And from what I've seen, our members (which we have a good number) don't have unhealthy hair. And we do not go to the extreme. To be quite honest, I don't think that you are near careful enough. Even Focus On the Family I'm sure doesn't believe in drinking and purgatory!

-- 09 Mar 2011 11:21 pm --

Each person has a certain amount of alchohol they can hold in their body before they get drunk. Drunk is when they have too much. it varies on each person. And no, it doesn't always lead to heavy drinking. That depends on the person and how much self control they have.
And it's hard to debate something when we aren't even talking about the exact same thing You're talking drinking in general. I'm talking moderate drinking. Because that's the only drinking I'm not against.

And just for the record, priests are forbidden to drink outside of special occations and the communion.


And sorry about my earlier post if it offended you or anything. I don't like it when people accuse a denomination of not being Christians, especially Catholics, because of what denomination they are.

and I'd still appreciate the verse for that. I don't really want to go looking through the past 4 pages for it. Please.

You're right, we do need to calm down. Things are getting pretty heated up. I still don't believe that all Catholics are Christians, but if they're walking in the light they have, then of course they're serving God. So please everybody calm down, I apoligize if I offended anyone by saying something rude.

-- 09 Mar 2011 11:23 pm --

This topic should seriously be moved to CCDS me thinks

Every time users actually start discussing a topic, people are like, "oh noes theres a fight going on! move it to CCDS!"

I think this is still in the area of ‘respectful discussion’ myself.

What is CCDS?

-- 09 Mar 2011 11:27 pm --

What is the difference between cutting your hair short and putting all your hair up into a bun?

Bun hair is long (you don't have to put it in a bun, you can keep it down), cut hair is obviously not long

Well, appearance-wise, it's the same thing. What's the point of making sure you don't cut your hair so you can have a covering, but then storing it all in a bun? To me, the hair square-footage is the same. Just curious.

Well, we don't consider shoulder-length hair long (unless of course it grows naturally short) I've never really thought of bun hair being shorter than shoulder-length, but the point is just not cutting it, really.

-- 09 Mar 2011 11:28 pm --

Each person has a certain amount of alchohol they can hold in their body before they get drunk. Drunk is when they have too much. it varies on each person. And no, it doesn't always lead to heavy drinking. That depends on the person and how much self control they have.
And it's hard to debate something when we aren't even talking about the exact same thing You're talking drinking in general. I'm talking moderate drinking. Because that's the only drinking I'm not against.

And just for the record, priests are forbidden to drink outside of special occations and the communion.


And sorry about my earlier post if it offended you or anything. I don't like it when people accuse a denomination of not being Christians, especially Catholics, because of what denomination they are.

and I'd still appreciate the verse for that. I don't really want to go looking through the past 4 pages for it. Please.

What verse are you talking about?

[StrongNChrist]

I was using the trimming hair as an example. Not to say it's bad or anything. I just happen to know from people who make a living taking care of hair that some people do have unhealthy hair unless they trim it. I know not all have that. When my hair is long I never have to trim it.

Don't go judging a book by it's cover OF1. Compared to how most Christians live, yes you take it to the extreme. I'm not saying that's wrong. The way I live is not as extreme as you guys. I don't believe that's wrong either. If it is, God will let me know. But in all 13 years that I've been a Christian He has yet to do so, so I will continue to do as I believe. I follow the Bible. I serve Christ with all my life. Yes, I wear pants. yes, I cut my hair short. I don't believe that's wrong.
And yes, the Catholic religion is the Christian religion. They are Christians. Don't go judging a person by what church they go to. That's like claiming Lutherans aren't Christian either because they follow tons of the same practices as the Catholics. They do not serve other gods. Yes they do things differently. But they still believe in Jesus Christ, who is God and became man to die for our sins. Just like you guys do. You guys do things differently from Baptists. That does not make either one of you more right or wrong. Catholics are Christians. Not all of them, naturally. Just like not everyone in the Baptist church or yours are Christians. Catholics are just another denomination.

And I didn't see your edits before I posted that The verse is the one on drinking. I'm interested in looking it up in different versions. And also CCDS is Cambell County Debate Society or something like that Debates get moved there. And I apologize again. Accusing a specific denomination, especially Catholics, of not being of the Christian faith is a pet peeve of mine. Someone says that and it will get me on the high horse as quick as you can blink. And it's had to calm me down afterwards.

So yeah If this debate continues it should be moved to CCDS but meanwhile, let's all take a deep breath and come back on Thursday

[odysseyfan1]

*pops in*

odysseyfan1 is correct with everything he has said so far.

*pops out before she gets hit by flying objects*

Thanks iluvsns. I'm glad that there are some people that agree with me.

-- 09 Mar 2011 11:36 pm --

I was using the trimming hair as an example. Not to say it's bad or anything. I just happen to know from people who make a living taking care of hair that some people do have unhealthy hair unless they trim it. I know not all have that. When my hair is long I never have to trim it.

Don't go judging a book by it's cover OF1. Compared to how most Christians live, yes you take it to the extreme. I'm not saying that's wrong. The way I live is not as extreme as you guys. I don't believe that's wrong either. If it is, God will let me know. But in all 13 years that I've been a Christian He has yet to do so, so I will continue to do as I believe. I follow the Bible. I serve Christ with all my life. Yes, I wear pants. yes, I cut my hair short. I don't believe that's wrong.
And yes, the Catholic religion is the Christian religion. They are Christians. Don't go judging a person by what church they go to. That's like claiming Lutherans aren't Christian either because they follow tons of the same practices as the Catholics. They do not serve other gods. Yes they do things differently. But they still believe in Jesus Christ, who is God and became man to die for our sins. Just like you guys do. You guys do things differently from Baptists. That does not make either one of you more right or wrong. Catholics are Christians. Not all of them, naturally. Just like not everyone in the Baptist church or yours are Christians. Catholics are just another denomination.

And I didn't see your edits before I posted that The verse is the one on drinking. I'm interested in looking it up in different versions. And also CCDS is Cambell County Debate Society or something like that Debates get moved there. And I apologize again. Accusing a specific denomination, especially Catholics, of not being of the Christian faith is a pet peeve of mine. Someone says that and it will get me on the high horse as quick as you can blink. And it's had to calm me down afterwards.

So yeah If this debate continues it should be moved to CCDS but meanwhile, let's all take a deep breath and come back on Thursday

Well, I know that some of the Lutherans are definitely not Christians, allowing gay ministers in the pulpit, but yes, like you said, there are Christian lutherans, baptists, holiness, ect. Not all of them are, but not all of ours are either, so...

[StrongNChrist]

Just like there are Christian Catholics

Ahem, sorry I'm wound up now on that subject so I'm having a hard time calming down. I think I'll get off now and will continue this tomorrow when I'm calmer
Although, I have heard about the gay ministers thing. Not every lutheran is for that. I have relatives who are Lutheran and their church is trying to find a way to break off from the main branch of Lutherans because of that

Pretty much, the way to look at it is not what church they go to or how much they do compared to someone else but who they serve.

[odysseyfan1]

Just like there are Christian Catholics

Ahem, sorry I'm wound up now on that subject so I'm having a hard time calming down. I think I'll get off now and will continue this tomorrow when I'm calmer
Although, I have heard about the gay ministers thing. Not every lutheran is for that. I have relatives who are Lutheran and their church is trying to find a way to break off from the main branch of Lutherans because of that

Pretty much, the way to look at it is not what church they go to or how much they do compared to someone else but who they serve.

lol, yeah, just like the Christian Catholics.

[American Eagle]

And might I remind you that the Catholic church was the original church.

I've wanted to reply to a handful of things in this thread, but this statement screamed "REPLY TO ME". Have you studied the foundation of the Catholic church? Catholics will obviously claim that all the early Christians were "Catholic", but that is not so. Priests certainly didn't exist at the time. Catholicism was "legalized" in 313 under Constantine's Edict of Milan, and declared the state religion of the Roman Empire in 380. This is truly the beginning of Catholicism, as an official "religion", anyway.

People at my church would claim that Jesus and the early Apostles were Baptist, and I'm sure other denominations would claim so for their group. In truth, the early Christians didn't have a "religious affiliation", other than a follower of Christ. Catholicism was created a few hundred years later, and Baptistism (making a new word here), Methodism, Lutheranism, etc. were all created over a thousand years later. Jesus wasn't Catholic, nor Baptist, nor anything. He was... Himself.

[Amethystic]

Side-note: Here's an interesting article I read about the Catholic church a while ago. http://listverse.com/2009/07/13/top-10- ... ic-church/ I definitely don't condone some of their practices, but they're as Christian as any other denomination. It's not about the different rules and regulations so much as it is the hearts of the people following them. There are Christian and non-Christian Catholics the same way there are Christian and non-Christian members of other denominations.

And even though I do not condone homosexuality, I don't think it's fair to assume that all pro-gay people are pseudo-Christians. They're misguided, yes, but I've known many a believer who was a moral pushover, but was still doing the best they could to follow Christ. Are they totally in line with God? No--few of us are. In the end, the question of "whether they are saved or not" lies with the Lord, and it's not really our place to speculate who's in and who's out based on moral short-comings.

[odysseyfan1]

Side-note: Here's an interesting article I read about the Catholic church a while ago. http://listverse.com/2009/07/13/top-10- ... ic-church/ I definitely don't condone some of their practices, but they're as Christian as any other denomination. It's not about the different rules and regulations so much as it is the hearts of the people following them. There are Christian and non-Christian Catholics the same way there are Christian and non-Christian members of other denominations.

And even though I do not condone homosexuality, I don't think it's fair to assume that all pro-gay people are pseudo-Christians. They're misguided, yes, but I've known many a believer who was a moral pushover, but was still doing the best they could to follow Christ. Are they totally in line with God? No--few of us are. In the end, the question of "whether they are saved or not" lies with the Lord, and it's not really our place to speculate who's in and who's out based on moral short-comings.

You think that gay people are christians?!

[Amethystic]

I'm not saying they're very effective Christians, seeing as they're not living their lives to please God, but to rule out all gay people would be like saying, "all people who fornicate aren't Christians", or "all people who look at pornography aren't Christians". Sexual struggles affect many Christians, whether they're willing participants in this downfall or not. Like I said, their Christian walk is between them and God--He's the one they answer to in the end. People and their sins aren't black and white.

[odysseyfan1]

I'm not saying they're very effective Christians, seeing as they're not living their lives to please God, but to rule out all gay people would be like saying, "all people who fornicate aren't Christians", or "all people who look at pornography aren't Christians". Sexual struggles affect many Christians, whether they're willing participants in this downfall or not. Like I said, their Christian walk is between them and God--He's the one they answer to in the end. People and their sins aren't black and white.

I'd have to disagree with you there. Of course people struggle, but when they give into the temptation, they have sinned.

[StrongNChrist]

AE, no I haven't but I have never heard anyone say that the Baptists were the original church. It has always been the Catholics. And honestly, I don't want to debate that. I'd rather not get wound up again

And OF1, yes, they have sinned. But someone who sins doesn't make them any less Christian then anyone else. Amy's right though. Their Christian walk is between them and God. We, as equal sinners just as worthy of death as them, have no right to look at what they're doing and judge them. Now, God places people in positions to speak to them but that's not everyone's job.

[bookworm]

Wow this topic took a turn overnight.
I have comments on the new topics, but I’m not going to post them at this time because that’s not what I prepared for. And I don’t know if I’ll post them later either because it seems to me like that one is a lost cause. No one is going to budge their position there at this time, so discussion is pointless. (and would need moved to CCDS ) So hopefully we can move past that and continue with the other topics.

What I was going to do is, to make sure there isn’t confusion about what I’ve said in my posts, I’m going to give a rundown of what speaking in tongues is and is not.

Speaking in tongues, as I said before, is not simply speaking in a different language. It is speaking in a language that is beyond human creation and human understanding.
To most it would seem like gibberish, but it is actually direct communication with God. It is a language above the power of mankind, and that is why it can’t be understood.
People speak in tongues when they are given the ability to do so. They don’t do it on their own.

Praying in tongues is similar, but not the same thing.
The difference is in the purpose. Speaking in tongues has the potential to help others, while praying in tongues helps the individual doing it.
Praying in tongues is the same direct communication with God in a language unintelligible to humans.
The difference is, speaking in tongues can be understood if someone with the gift of interpretation of tongues is present to translate. Praying in tongues cannot be deciphered, and is only between the praying person and God.
People pray in tongues when the Holy Spirit enables them to do so. It is absolutely not something you can do on your own, and it is never used to show off.

Both speaking and praying in tongues (and interpretation of tongues) are spiritual gifts, as the Bible says, and are given to assist certain people to experience God more deeply.

And all of this is entirely different than being ‘drunk in the Spirit’ which I have no opinion on because I have never witnessed it.


Edit:

And odysseyfan1, you still haven’t answered the question we need answered to continue this discussion properly.

It's not wrong until God tells you.

There, you said it again, but it still makes no sense because you haven’t explained.
What do you mean by ‘wrong’?

[Joanne]

Hey I understand wanting to debate Odysseyfan1's answers but remember this is just a thread for us to ask questions and get answers in order to better understand his beliefs, not to rip them apart. Just my little two cents. Carry on...