PHC - Clarification

[odysseyfan1]

@ Soccerlotr: What I mean by mistake is for example a lie or a bad attitude. You need to apologize to God and the person. Only when u don't repent is when your relationship is ruined

@ Dr. Watson: Let me ask u a question: After reading 1 John, do you think Christians should be righteous, or evil?

@ KG: Christians will have bad thoughts, but as soon as they come we need to push them out of our mind. We can't dwell on them.

[Knight Fisher]

Odysseyfan, you can't just push them out of your mind. And lets say you do. Even thinking them for that second is a sin.

[Termite]

No, there is a verse that says to 'take every thought captive'. Will we always? No, but it IS possible to mostly control your thoughts. It just takes practice and spiritual maturity. EDIT: 2 Corinthians 10:5

@ Soccerlotr: What I mean by mistake is for example a lie or a bad attitude. You need to apologize to God and the person. Only when u don't repent is when your relationship is ruined.

So answer my question from the other thread: I sin and then die without repenting. Do I go to heck, then?

[Knight Fisher]

My point was that we don't live a minute when we are awake when we don't sin.

[Dr. Watson]

@ Soccerlotr: What I mean by mistake is for example a lie or a bad attitude. You need to apologize to God and the person. Only when u don't repent is when your relationship is ruined

@ Dr. Watson: Let me ask u a question: After reading 1 John, do you think Christians should be righteous, or evil?

@ KG: Christians will have bad thoughts, but as soon as they come we need to push them out of our mind. We can't dwell on them.

OF1, you didn't answer my question. Do you think you are sinless or will be sinless?

I have read 1 John many times--I think it is clear that Christians are called to be righteous, but they still sin. Do you disagree with this?

[SoccerLOTR]

@ Soccerlotr: What I mean by mistake is for example a lie or a bad attitude. You need to apologize to God and the person. Only when u don't repent is when your relationship is ruined

So...when you're not a Christian and you lie, you are sinning, but when you are a Christian and you lie, you aren't sinning? How are these "mistakes" not sins? How big of a "mistake" does it have to be for it to qualify as a sin instead of a mistake?

[odysseyfan1]

Odysseyfan, you can't just push them out of your mind. And lets say you do. Even thinking them for that second is a sin.

No it's not. We are human, and will think these things, but we can't dwell on them. That's when it becomes sin. We ask Jesus to help us, and think about something else.

I sin and then die without repenting. Do I go to heck, then?

I would have to say yes.

My point was that we don't live a minute when we are awake when we don't sin.

That's not true.

OF1, you didn't answer my question. Do you think you are sinless or will be sinless?

I have read 1 John many times--I think it is clear that Christians are called to be righteous, but they still sin. Do you disagree with this?

Yes, I disagree with that. Sometimes they will make a mistake (sin) but they need to ask forgiveness. My point in this discussion is that you can't sin, not repent, and still go to Heaven.

So...when you're not a Christian and you lie, you are sinning, but when you are a Christian and you lie, you aren't sinning? How are these "mistakes" not sins? How big of a "mistake" does it have to be for it to qualify as a sin instead of a mistake?

I think we need to stop using the word "mistake." I think it's confusing everybody. A mistake, is sin. So if a Christian lies, then yes, he does sin, even if he didn't mean to. But once again, I'm saying that they need to apologize to God and the person they lied to, and God will forgive them. I hope everybody understands what I'm saying.

-- 09 Jun 2011 09:26 am --

NOTE: On Monday I'm going to camps for two weeks, so it may be a long time before I can continue this discussion. If you want to continue, and wait several weeks, I'll be more than happy to continue, or if you want to stop, we can do that.

[Knight Fisher]

What! (Would do it in all caps, but that illegal.) So thinking it isn't a sin? So if I think for example. I want to kill Marv! (example) But then immediately stop its not a sin? I have to dwell on it for say five seconds?

—

Please explain this verse.

[odysseyfan1]

Please explain this verse.

Certainly. We can't get to Heaven by our own goodness. We do have sin, but when we ask God to forgive us he takes it out. This is talking to sinners, and new converts. Not the saints.

I'm not being mean-spirited when I say this, but could you please explain all the 1 John verses I provided earlier? Also Romans 6:15 that says (and I paraphrase) "Should we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid!"

[The Top Crusader]

Breaking the man-made laws would also be a sin, as it is disobedience to our government, so if we break a traffic law and are hit by a semi and killed we won't go to heaven?

[Amethystic]

Odysseyfan, you can't just push them out of your mind. And lets say you do. Even thinking them for that second is a sin.

No it's not. We are human, and will think these things, but we can't dwell on them. That's when it becomes sin. We ask Jesus to help us, and think about something else.

But then what about addiction and spiritual bondage--people who can't stop dwelling on things? Are they going to heck just because they're stuck in a rut?

[John Chrysostom]

I agree with Odysseyfan that confession of sins is an integral part of our faith, however I disagree with his statement that 1 John is speaking to converts only as I think that's stretching the text into what you want it to say. As for the statement that it's speaking to sinners yes it is, and we are all sinners just because we're Christians doesn't mean we stop sinning it just means we can have those sins forgiven. The Romans 6:15 verse doesn't say we will never sin it say "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!" It says we should not sin now that we are no longer under the law with the idea that we'll confess our sins later and be fine but what this is not saying is that we will never sin again now that we are Christians.

Now that being said I think God will show mercy upon who He wishes and the idea that we have to be up to date on our confessions to get into heaven seems very Catholic and legalistic to me and this is coming from an Eastern Orthodox who goes to confession with a priest.

As for addiction that's a very tough question and I would caution Odysseyfan to be tactful in answering it as addiction is a very serious issue. As for spiritual bondage could you please define that?

[Termite]

I sin and then die without repenting. Do I go to heck, then?

I would have to say yes.

I'm going to be a tactless hyperbolist again and say I really hope you never come into contact with any non-Christians and spew idiocy like that. This is why people are turned off from Christianty.

Also, you just partially condemned yourself to heck too. What if something like that ever happens to you? (and don't go all 'blah blah blah it won't etc etc' cause I don't want to hear it. There's always a chance that accidents happen- and we as humans sin.)

Ayn, I believe you were asking Amy, but let's see if I can't get close- spiritual bondage as in, you are addicted to porn and then became converted. It won't always be an instantaneous healing- sometimes it will take months, even a few years for someone to break something that is such a deep trap.

[odysseyfan1]

I'm going to be a tactless hyperbolist again and say I really hope you never come into contact with any non-Christians and spew idiocy like that. This is why people are turned off from Christianty.

Ah, but I'm not talking to non-christians (at least I assume the people in this discussion profess) We're having a theological discussion. Perhaps I was a bit hasty. It depends on the situation. If, for example, someone was on their way to apologize for stealing an airplane, and got killed on the way, then yes, they would go to Heaven.

but what this is not saying is that we will never sin again now that we are Christians

No, I don't believe that Christian's will never sin again, but they shouldn't sin consistently.

On the subject of addictions, they're very powerful, but by God's grace, and with his help, they can be overcome. However that's not to say that people won't struggle immediately after getting saved. It could quite possibly take a lot of time to overcome the addiction. So, yes, as long as they're trying to overcome their problem, then of course they will go to Heaven.

Breaking the man-made laws would also be a sin, as it is disobedience to our government, so if we break a traffic law and are hit by a semi and killed we won't go to heaven?

Ooh, tough question. Not one I can really answer. If you're doing it in direct defiance, then that would be sin, accidently running a red light would not be sin.

[John Chrysostom]

Question; do you think the thief on the cross apologized for his sins?

If, for example, someone was on their way to apologize for stealing an airplane, and got killed on the way, then yes, they would go to Heaven.

I think this is the problem with trying to set up rules for getting into heaven you always have to be making exceptions for special circumstances and if you can bend the rule here how does it stand elsewhere? I mean what if I sin against someone but before I can ask forgiveness of that person they die? Or what if I commit a sin in ignorance such as forgetting to pay for gas and I drive away and never realize that I've stolen. Isn't it just enough to say we can't know the heart of any man and that while confession is a very good thing and an essential part of the Christian life God is the ultimate judge of these things and we shouldn't attempt to set up arbitrary man made rules about these things?

[Amethystic]

I sin and then die without repenting. Do I go to heck, then?

I would have to say yes.

I'm going to be a tactless hyperbolist again and say I really hope you never come into contact with any non-Christians and spew idiocy like that. This is why people are turned off from Christianty.

Well if it makes you feel better, this time it was just tactless.

Ayn, I believe you were asking Amy, but let's see if I can't get close- spiritual bondage as in, you are addicted to porn and then became converted. It won't always be an instantaneous healing- sometimes it will take months, even a few years for someone to break something that is such a deep trap.

Mmm... that's basically it, though I'd say Christians can fall into it too. (But that's a whole other discussion.) Sometimes it's in a less tangible form than a porn addiction. There's a wide range of negative thoughts that people can become fixated on. I've said this before, but I know some really sincere Christians with some very serious problems. Do they have bad thoughts and behaviors? Yes. Have they repented for all the sin in their lives? No, but they're working on it--and they've probably done a lot more repentance than most people here have. Bondage is seldom easy to break, and while for many stable, addiction-free Christians it's easy to say "just repent and Jesus will make it all better", in reality it's a lot more complicated than that. It's called a battle for a reason.

Ah, but I'm not talking to non-christians (at least I assume the people in this discussion profess) We're having a theological discussion. Perhaps I was a bit hasty. It depends on the situation. If, for example, someone was on their way to apologize for stealing an airplane, and got killed on the way, then yes, they would go to Heaven.

No, I don't believe that Christian's will never sin again, but they shouldn't sin consistently.

On the subject of addictions, they're very powerful, but by God's grace, and with his help, they can be overcome. However that's not to say that people won't struggle immediately after getting saved. It could quite possibly take a lot of time to overcome the addiction. So, yes, as long as they're trying to overcome their problem, then of course they will go to Heaven.

So we HAVE to follow those rules... except in certain situations? I have to agree with Ayn; if you try to make a tangible rules of "dos" and "don'ts" for getting into heaven, there's always 'special circumstances' that render the list null. I don't think God's law has exceptions unless they're actually stated in the Bible. We should desire to follow God's Word, but if we legalize it we're missing the entire point: God is love, and it's by faith we are saved. So you can either can spend years trying to figure out a list of requirements you have to fill to be eligible for Heaven, or you can trust in God for guidance and develop our faith by reading his Word without scrutinizing every paragraph. I'd rather turn to the Holy Spirit to open my eyes to the Bible's truth than to try and decipher it myself with my puny human brain.

[Knight Fisher]

What do I have to say.God doesn't erase sin so it doesn't happen! Paul sinned constantly. Every single person that ever existed with the obvious exception of Jesus. Was is and shall be in the habit of sinning constantly! You cannot stop. You will sin again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again. Have I made my point.

[Dr. Watson]

OF1, what is the point of the gospel if we have to constantly maintain our salvation by our performance?

[bookworm]

odysseyfan1, I don’t know if I understand what you’re saying or not. The first time I read your posts I thought you said one thing, but when I reread it I thought you said the exact opposite.

First, are you saying that Christians do or don’t still sin?

[Amethystic]

What do I have to say.God doesn't erase sin so it doesn't happen! Paul sinned constantly. Every single person that ever existed with the obvious exception of Jesus. Was is and shall be in the habit of sinning constantly! You cannot stop. You will sin again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again. Have I made my point.

That's a lot of frantic emoticons.