PHC - Questions Answered

[odysseyfan1]

Jesus drank wine Are you saying He was wrong to do so?

The Bible talks mainly of getting drunk. Getting drunk is what's wrong, drinking alchohol in of itself is not. Now if it causes a brother to stumble, then naturally you avoid it. But if it doesn't and it doesn't cause you to stumble, then it's okay. Wine, in face, in certain quantities and only if you can handle it and are used to it, has proven to be healthy for you because of what it's made from. So actually if it doesn't get you drunk or cause your brother to stumble it's not really wrong.

I looked up thefreedictionary.com the meaning of speaking in tongues and got

The ability or phenomenon to utter words or sounds of a language unknown to the speaker, especially as an expression of religious ecstasy

That pretty much means it can be any language, be it another countrie's language or the language of the angels. It's just a language that the speaker doesn't know and would technically never be able to do.

I get what Joanne's saying and I see how she was agreeing with me. Here's the deal. I like to challenge people, see how strongly they truly believe something and how much they know about it or whether or not they're just going by what their taught.
Here's what I believe. I wear pants. I hate skirts. I keep my hair as short as possible - not too short, because boyish cuts just don't suit girls - I believe in speaking in tongues. I don't do it myself but I have witnessed it happening and have no doubt it's God. I know with no doubt that God is not up in heaven ready to convict me for this. I'm not doing wrong, I'm not sinning, in these cases.
I also believe in doing what God tells you. If God tells you to wear skirts, ladies, wear skirts. If God doesn't then you don't have to unless you want to. Sometimes God has people do something others don't have to just to test their faith or perhaps for other reasons unknown to us. But you gotta be sure it's from God and not just like something you were always raised to believe and your parents believe it so you gotta do it too. It has to be from God, not parents or others. Sure, you obey your parents. But you don't become a Christian because your parents are Christians. Same thing with this.

Did any of that make sense?

Hmmm...yeah, except for the alcohol part, which I can say most certainly is absolutely wrong for everyone. What Jesus drank was not like what wine today is. Do you know how many homes have been ruined, people have been killed, raped, injured, handicapped, ect. bcause of alchohol?! The Bible very clearly says to stay away from it "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging, and whosoever is deceived thereby are not wise"! Oh, and the speaking in tongues part. You guys aren't really speaking in another language.

[American Eagle]

Jesus drank wine Are you saying He was wrong to do so?

The Bible talks mainly of getting drunk. Getting drunk is what's wrong, drinking alchohol in of itself is not. Now if it causes a brother to stumble, then naturally you avoid it. But if it doesn't and it doesn't cause you to stumble, then it's okay. Wine, in face, in certain quantities and only if you can handle it and are used to it, has proven to be healthy for you because of what it's made from. So actually if it doesn't get you drunk or cause your brother to stumble it's not really wrong.

Adding to what odysseyfan1 posted: when Habakkuk 2:15 says, "Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink...", it's talking about everyone except Jesus?

SNC, I'm sure you always been told that alcohol is fine "in moderation". If you're open to studying the other point of view, read this article.

[odysseyfan1]

Jesus drank wine Are you saying He was wrong to do so?

The Bible talks mainly of getting drunk. Getting drunk is what's wrong, drinking alchohol in of itself is not. Now if it causes a brother to stumble, then naturally you avoid it. But if it doesn't and it doesn't cause you to stumble, then it's okay. Wine, in face, in certain quantities and only if you can handle it and are used to it, has proven to be healthy for you because of what it's made from. So actually if it doesn't get you drunk or cause your brother to stumble it's not really wrong.

Adding to what odysseyfan1 posted: when Habakkuk 2:15 says, "Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink...", it's talking about everyone except Jesus?

SNC, I'm sure you always been told that alcohol is fine "in moderation". If you're open to studying the other point of view, read this article.

That's a good article. (i didn't read it all because of it's length) That's what I meant when I said that it didn't use to be what it is now. Jesus didn't drink alcohol, but something like grape juice.

[StrongNChrist]

Do you know how many homes have been destroyed, people have been killed, raped, injured, and handicapped and alchohol wasn't involved? You can't blame the alchohol for all of that you know. Those things happen even without alchohol being involved.

I didn't say alchohol is always good. I meant that in some cases it's okay. And no, AE, I've not always been told that. I was raised in a family who never touched alchohol and rarely spoke of it. I will never touch alchohol in my entire life. I come from a family who cannot handle alchohol so I know that if I drink any the results will not be pleasant. But I have seen people who drink wine but not much and it has no effect on them. It does no harm to them, because they also don't drink very much and that's what really damages the body.
The main things i've read about alchohol, in the NT, is that getting drunk is wrong. So is making your brother stumble. I don't believe that drinking wine is wrong. I myself will never touch it but it's not like a person drinks they sin. And not everyone will become violent or cause accidents and such when they drink. Although the people I know who've drink never drive until the alchohol is out of their system

[odysseyfan1]

Do you know how many homes have been destroyed, people have been killed, raped, injured, and handicapped and alchohol wasn't[i/] involved? You can't blame the alchohol for all of that you know. Those things happen even without alchohol being involved.

I didn't say alchohol is always good. I meant that in some cases it's okay. And no, AE, I've not always been told that. I was raised in a family who never touched alchohol and rarely spoke of it. I will never touch alchohol in my entire life. I come from a family who cannot handle alchohol so I know that if I drink any the results will not be pleasant. But I have seen people who drink wine but not much and it has no effect on them. It does no harm to them, because they also don't drink very much and that's what really damages the body.
The main things i've read about alchohol, in the NT, is that getting drunk is wrong. So is making your brother stumble. I don't believe that drinking wine is wrong. I myself will never touch it but it's not like a person drinks they sin. And not everyone will become violent or cause accidents and such when they drink. Although the people I know who've drink never drive until the alchohol is out of their system

Drinking can damage the heart and can lead to high blood pressure. Drinking alcohol can increase the risk of breast cancer, lung cancer and cancer of the liver. Long term drinking can destroy the cerebellum of the brain causing irreversible brain damage. It contributes to hepatitis, cirrhosis, malnutrition, pancreatis, stomach ulcer, fetal alcohol syndrome, heart disease, and more! And that's just the effects on your own body! There's also all the money you're wasting, the time you're wasting, the family you're destroying, the testimony you've destroyed, the things that you do when you're drunk, that you don't even remember doing later! If you never start you'll never have to stop.

[bookworm]

Peachey Keen, you do realize that what you said has nothing to do with speaking in tongues, right?

What Peachey Keen said had lots to do with speaking in tongues.

No, speaking in tongues is not ‘drunk in the Spirit’ it is a different phenomenon.
Speaking in tongues is simply saying things that cannot be understood by human ears. (Unless you have the spiritual gift of interpretation of tongues.)
I have not seen this happen personally, however I have seen praying in tongues. (Praying in tongues is different than speaking in tongues, but it’s similar.)
I know two people who can pray in tongues, when the Holy Spirit enables them to do so. It is not something you can bring upon yourself, which is why it is not something you do to show off. It is a gift from God to allow you to communicate with Him more directly than you would with a human language.

Every time so far, that I've seen speaking in tongues in the Bible, he compares it with speaking in another language. Are you guys speaking in other languages, or what?

Speaking in tongues is not speaking other languages.
The Bible mentions both, but in the original texts there is a difference in the word, so it is obvious that there is a difference in the action,
In other words, there is a different word for speaking different languages (like to spread the Gospel to other countries) and speaking in tongues which is not a language. (of human creation at least) Speaking in tongues is, to our ears, gibberish. No one can understand it but God. (Unless, as I said, someone has the gift of interpretation of tongues.)

and the speaking in tongues part. You guys aren't really speaking in another language.

Yes they are, it’s the language of Angels. (And thus sounds like nonsense to human ears.)

[StrongNChrist]

Drinking can damage the heart and can lead to high blood pressure.

That's excessive drinking

Drinking alcohol can increase the risk of breast cancer, lung cancer

Alchohol has no connection to breast cancer or lung cancer. I don't remember if people know whether or not the reasons people get breast cancer yet but lung cancer is normally gotten from smoking, not alchohol.

and cancer of the liver.

That I can agree comes from drinking but again, it's excessive drinking. Having a glass of wine once a week, or at special events and such does not cause that.

Long term drinking can destroy the cerebellum of the brain causing irreversible brain damage.

Again, I've never heard of any connection to that.

It contributes to hepatitis, cirrhosis, malnutrition, pancreatis, stomach ulcer, fetal alcohol syndrome, heart disease, and more!

For one thing most of those I've never heard of connected to alchohol and also it's with excesssive drinking. Not an occosianal drink. Also fetal alchohol syndrome is not an effect on your own body. It's what babies get when their mother drinks alchohol while being pregnant. I've never heard of a case of someone getting that syndrome just from drinking.

And that's just the effects on your own body! There's also all the money you're wasting, the time you're wasting, the family you're destroying, the testimony you've destroyed, the things that you do when you're drunk, that you don't even remember doing later! If you never start you'll never have to stop.

And as I'm clarified in the past, I'm not talking about being drunk. I'm talking about drinking alchohol. One drink alchohol does not make a person drunk. Did you know they have alchohol in mouthwash? And some colognes? Do you use any of those?

I'm curious where you're getting your facts. I'm a medical student and we covered alchohol in a recent class and most of those things were never mentioned. Mind sharing where you got them?

And to say one more thing. Not for or against this but I just want to point out that from things I've heard some people actually do remember what they do when they're drunk Just saying

[bookworm]

Drinking can damage the heart and can lead to high blood pressure. Drinking alcohol can increase the risk of breast cancer, lung cancer and cancer of the liver.

Drinking in moderation actually has multiple health benefits.
SnC is correct, getting drunk is the sin, drinking one or two glasses of wine is fine. (Unless of course you have a low tolerance and that would make you drunk)

[StrongNChrist]

Thank you bookworm.

And he's right. Low tolerance means getting drunk easier. I come from a family with low tolerance on both sides of my parents. This is why I'm planning on avoiding alchohol because I have the genetics of having low tolerance.

And I do correct myself on one thing. Alchohol does damage the brain, only before the age of 21 (not exact age but that's the average age) before the brain has finished developing. That is the reason why alchohol before that age is against the law.

[odysseyfan1]

Drinking can damage the heart and can lead to high blood pressure.

That's excessive drinking

Drinking alcohol can increase the risk of breast cancer, lung cancer

Alchohol has no connection to breast cancer or lung cancer. I don't remember if people know whether or not the reasons people get breast cancer yet but lung cancer is normally gotten from smoking, not alchohol.

and cancer of the liver.

That I can agree comes from drinking but again, it's excessive drinking. Having a glass of wine once a week, or at special events and such does not cause that.

Long term drinking can destroy the cerebellum of the brain causing irreversible brain damage.

Again, I've never heard of any connection to that.

It contributes to hepatitis, cirrhosis, malnutrition, pancreatis, stomach ulcer, fetal alcohol syndrome, heart disease, and more!

For one thing most of those I've never heard of connected to alchohol and also it's with excesssive drinking. Not an occosianal drink. Also fetal alchohol syndrome is not an effect on your own body. It's what babies get when their mother drinks alchohol while being pregnant. I've never heard of a case of someone getting that syndrome just from drinking.

And that's just the effects on your own body! There's also all the money you're wasting, the time you're wasting, the family you're destroying, the testimony you've destroyed, the things that you do when you're drunk, that you don't even remember doing later! If you never start you'll never have to stop.

And as I'm clarified in the past, I'm not talking about being drunk. I'm talking about drinking alchohol. One drink alchohol does not make a person drunk. Did you know they have alchohol in mouthwash? And some colognes? Do you use any of those?

I'm curious where you're getting your facts. I'm a medical student and we covered alchohol in a recent class and most of those things were never mentioned. Mind sharing where you got them?

And to say one more thing. Not for or against this but I just want to point out that from things I've heard some people actually do remember what they do when they're drunk Just saying

I got it from the Women's Heart Foundation, and I think they would know what they're talking about. http://www.womensheart.org/content/hear ... isease.asp Read the main page about who they are. Once again, if you never start, you'll never have to stop. You can't get addicted, if you don't drink it. Christians have always been against alcohol, that's pretty basic. The Bible doesn't say just not to get drunk. I've quoted it already, and I'll do it again. "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." That verse sounds like God wants us to stay away from alcohol altogether, don't you think?

[bookworm]

The Bible doesn't say just not to get drunk. I've quoted it already, and I'll do it again. "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." That verse sounds like God wants us to stay away from alcohol altogether, don't you think?

No because being deceived by drink means getting drunk. If it meant ‘don’t drink at all’ it would have said that. But instead it has that modifier.

When I have time I’m going to type up a better explanation on tongues that will hopefully make things clearer, but in the meantime can you please answer this odysseyfan1?

It depends on what odysseyfan1is meaning by ‘wrong’ and ‘convict’ in this discussion.
If by wrong he means they are sinful, then you’re right it makes no sense to say it’s wrong for them but not for others. Sin is sin whether you’re convicted of it or not.
But if he means wrong just as potentially harmful (like distracting from God or something) then I can understand what he’s saying. It’s wrong for them because they want to focus more clearly on God, but it may not be wrong for others personally because it’s not, strictly speaking, sinful.

[Jeremy]

Christians have always been against alcohol, that's pretty basic.

That is just not accurate. For the first 1,800 years of the Church, all Christians believed in drinking alcohol and all Christians drank alcohol at the Lord's Supper. That is simply historical fact. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_alcohol) Grape juice was not even invented until 1869.

The Bible doesn't say just not to get drunk. I've quoted it already, and I'll do it again. "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." That verse sounds like God wants us to stay away from alcohol altogether, don't you think?

What does this verse sound like?

"And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household," (Deuteronomy 14:26 KJV.)

Jeremy

[StrongNChrist]

In fact, to go on what Jeremy said, Catholics serve real wine for their communion.

[Amethystic]

Christians have always been against alcohol, that's pretty basic.

That is just not accurate. For the first 1,800 years of the Church, all Christians believed in drinking alcohol and all Christians drank alcohol at the Lord's Supper. That is simply historical fact. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_alcohol) Grape juice was not even invented until 1869.

In early societies wine (albeit less-potent wine than we're used to seeing) was the staple drink because water was unsafe to drink. And even in modern society, in places like Germany, it's still normal for people to drink beer regularly.

EDIT: Oh, and I just have to say something about the speaking in tongues thing. I've grown up in a tongue-speaking family; there's no doubt in my mind that people speak in tongues, and they do it all the time. I know the verses and stuff, and when combined with what I've seen in my life I know that this is the real deal. (And it's true that unless you have someone to translate, speaking in tongues doesn't edify the church, but it edifies you. Or something like that.)

Also, don't judge a person by their denomination, judge them by their individual walk with God. Yeah, some Pentecostals put on a show, but there are others who are really on fire for God. Same goes with Catholics, Baptists, Mennonites, and whoever else, I'm sure.

[bookworm]

More on wine and alcohol.
I didn’t read all of it, but it seems to cover everything we’ve been discussing.

To summarize, if you don’t want to read it all:
1) Biblical wine was not grape juice, it was fermented as it is today.
2) Consuming alcohol is not a sin, only over indulgence is.
3) The early Church did not teach that all alcohol is sinful, only that drunkenness is.

[Lee]

Our denomination has the same standards as the Pilgrim Holiness and I know quite a few Pilgrim Holiness people.

[StrongNChrist]

This topic should seriously be moved to CCDS me thinks

Anyways, I read the front page of that article from Women's Heart Foundation and have a few things to point out addressing your earlier statements.

Drinking can damage the heart and can lead to high blood pressure.

As the site put it

Heavy drinking, particularly over time, can damage the heart and lead to high blood pressure,

That doesn't mean drinking in of itself leads to that. It means that heavy drinking can cause that. Not the type of drinking I'm talking about.

It contributes to hepatitis, cirrhosis, malnutrition, pancreatis, stomach ulcer, fetal alcohol syndrome, heart disease, and more! And that's just the effects on your own body!

You took the words on that site out of context, if I might point out. You took the list they gave you and automatically put it as effects on "your own body" as you phrased it. The site did not say "These things affect your body" for those lists. As I mentioned before fetal alchohol syndrome is something an unborn child will get if their mother is drinking while pregnant. It cannot be gotten any other way. And also it does not cause malnutrition - that comes from not eating right, enough, etc - but actually causes dehyrdation. And I have never heard it related to hepatitis or pancreatis. I have heard it related to cirrhosis of the liver and heart disease, but again that's from heavy drinking, binge drinking, etc and not the kind of drinking I am talking about.

Also, don't judge a person by their denomination, judge them by their individual walk with God. Yeah, some Pentecostals put on a show, but there are others who are really on fire for God. Same goes with Catholics, Baptists, Mennonites, and whoever else, I'm sure.

QFT

[bookworm]

This topic should seriously be moved to CCDS me thinks

Every time users actually start discussing a topic, people are like, "oh noes theres a fight going on! move it to CCDS!"

I think this is still in the area of ‘respectful discussion’ myself.

[StrongNChrist]

Well, the alchohol part at least has changed into more of a debate then a discussion

I'm just stating something. I'm not actually doing anything I let the higher ups decide those important things.

[Dr. Watson]

What is the difference between cutting your hair short and putting all your hair up into a bun?

Bun hair is long (you don't have to put it in a bun, you can keep it down), cut hair is obviously not long

Well, appearance-wise, it's the same thing. What's the point of making sure you don't cut your hair so you can have a covering, but then storing it all in a bun? To me, the hair square-footage is the same. Just curious.