PHC - Questions Answered

[Amethystic]

2. Yeah, but by your logic, if someone's completely godly and righteous, wouldn't they share the same convictions you do?
3. But are you living a testimony, or alienating people with your behavior? (I swear, I'm not trying to kick up dirt, I'm just curious about your opinion. )

2. Not necessarily. That's not what I believe at all. See, all the Churches used to be like us. But people wanted to be worldly, so the churches split. And now years later, it's normal for the church to do cut their hair, ect. So most people don't think twice about wearing pants, ect. It's become normal. We just don't believe that it's right for us, or people who believe the same way, but just aren't willing.
3 We're not alienating anyone. I don't think you guys understand. When people come to our church, we don't tell them they shouldn't wear pants, cut their hair, ect. We let God convict them of it, and if he doesn't then so be it. It's none of our business. This is the way we live. I am simply telling everybody what we believe, because I don't want them to be confused about us.

So it's right for some people, not right for others?

[31899]

I believe the area about hair he was referencing was a cultural reference in one of Paul's letters to settle a specific cultural issue, not to apply it to all of humanity or it would have been in a larger portion of his letters appose to one. *slides back into the shadows to hide*

31899

[SoccerLOTR]

Right.

1. But what about the people who do speak in tongues? If they're not actually filled with the Holy Spirit, what are they doing?
2. Yeah, but by your logic, if someone's completely godly and righteous, wouldn't they share the same convictions you do?
3. But are you living a testimony, or alienating people with your behavior? (I swear, I'm not trying to kick up dirt, I'm just curious about your opinion. )
4. Are there certain songs, instruments, etc. you aren't allowed to use? What standards does a song have to meet for it to be allowed in church? And do you listen to different music outside of church, or do you maintain the same musical standards in and out of church?

1. Hmmm...Interesting question. Perhaps they're creating a feeling of excitement, and attributing to God. I don't mean to offend anyone. I'm really not sure, what the right answer to this question would be.

But speaking in tongues is a spiritual gift, according to the Bible...so why would you say that it is wrong/no one does it legitimately?

And don't pants have the potential to be more modest than skirts? A lose pair of pants seems perfectly modest, and the risk of it blowing up with the wind and showing your legs seems much lower if not non-existent, not to mention not having to worry about where you stand or if you end up on the ground somehow (either purposefully, in playing, or accidentally, e.g. falling). Sorry to dwell on this topic, I'll shut up about the pants questions after this.

[odysseyfan1]

2. Yeah, but by your logic, if someone's completely godly and righteous, wouldn't they share the same convictions you do?
3. But are you living a testimony, or alienating people with your behavior? (I swear, I'm not trying to kick up dirt, I'm just curious about your opinion. )

2. Not necessarily. That's not what I believe at all. See, all the Churches used to be like us. But people wanted to be worldly, so the churches split. And now years later, it's normal for the church to do cut their hair, ect. So most people don't think twice about wearing pants, ect. It's become normal. We just don't believe that it's right for us, or people who believe the same way, but just aren't willing.
3 We're not alienating anyone. I don't think you guys understand. When people come to our church, we don't tell them they shouldn't wear pants, cut their hair, ect. We let God convict them of it, and if he doesn't then so be it. It's none of our business. This is the way we live. I am simply telling everybody what we believe, because I don't want them to be confused about us.

So it's right for some people, not right for others?

It becomes wrong when God convicts someone of it. Until he does, then it's not wrong.

-- 03 Mar 2011 10:31 am --

I believe the area about hair he was referencing was a cultural reference in one of Paul's letters to settle a specific cultural issue, not to apply it to all of humanity or it would have been in a larger portion of his letters appose to one. *slides back into the shadows to hide*

31899

I'd appreciate it if you'd give me the reference, so I could study it. For the life of me, I have not been able to find it.

-- 03 Mar 2011 10:34 am --

Right.

1. But what about the people who do speak in tongues? If they're not actually filled with the Holy Spirit, what are they doing?
2. Yeah, but by your logic, if someone's completely godly and righteous, wouldn't they share the same convictions you do?
3. But are you living a testimony, or alienating people with your behavior? (I swear, I'm not trying to kick up dirt, I'm just curious about your opinion. )
4. Are there certain songs, instruments, etc. you aren't allowed to use? What standards does a song have to meet for it to be allowed in church? And do you listen to different music outside of church, or do you maintain the same musical standards in and out of church?

1. Hmmm...Interesting question. Perhaps they're creating a feeling of excitement, and attributing to God. I don't mean to offend anyone. I'm really not sure, what the right answer to this question would be.

But speaking in tongues is a spiritual gift, according to the Bible...so why would you say that it is wrong/no one does it legitimately?

And don't pants have the potential to be more modest than skirts? A lose pair of pants seems perfectly modest, and the risk of it blowing up with the wind and showing your legs seems much lower if not non-existent, not to mention not having to worry about where you stand or if you end up on the ground somehow (either purposefully, in playing, or accidentally, e.g. falling). Sorry to dwell on this topic, I'll shut up about the pants questions after this.

Where does the Bible say that it's a spiritual gift? And I don't think we've had a lot of problems with the skirts, but...That's fine, I don't care if you want to discuss pants, but I think I've already stated our opinion so, there won't be anything new for me to say on it.

[bookworm]

But speaking in tongues is a spiritual gift, according to the Bible...so why would you say that it is wrong/no one does it legitimately?

Where does the Bible say that it's a spiritual gift?

—

—

—

[Amethystic]

2. Yeah, but by your logic, if someone's completely godly and righteous, wouldn't they share the same convictions you do?
3. But are you living a testimony, or alienating people with your behavior? (I swear, I'm not trying to kick up dirt, I'm just curious about your opinion. )

2. Not necessarily. That's not what I believe at all. See, all the Churches used to be like us. But people wanted to be worldly, so the churches split. And now years later, it's normal for the church to do cut their hair, ect. So most people don't think twice about wearing pants, ect. It's become normal. We just don't believe that it's right for us, or people who believe the same way, but just aren't willing.
3 We're not alienating anyone. I don't think you guys understand. When people come to our church, we don't tell them they shouldn't wear pants, cut their hair, ect. We let God convict them of it, and if he doesn't then so be it. It's none of our business. This is the way we live. I am simply telling everybody what we believe, because I don't want them to be confused about us.

So it's right for some people, not right for others?

It becomes wrong when God convicts someone of it. Until he does, then it's not wrong.)

But wouldn't that be like saying it's not wrong to sin until God convicts you of it, wouldn't it? I mean, morality isn't relative. Is it wrong to wear jewelry or isn't it?

[SoccerLOTR]

But speaking in tongues is a spiritual gift, according to the Bible...so why would you say that it is wrong/no one does it legitimately?

Where does the Bible say that it's a spiritual gift?

—

—

—

Thank you, bookworm!

[Parker Family]

My Missionary friends can speak In Tongue. That don't do it to show off to people. They speak the Tongue when they are filled with a Holy Spirit.

[Joanne]

2. Yeah, but by your logic, if someone's completely godly and righteous, wouldn't they share the same convictions you do?
3. But are you living a testimony, or alienating people with your behavior? (I swear, I'm not trying to kick up dirt, I'm just curious about your opinion. )

2. Not necessarily. That's not what I believe at all. See, all the Churches used to be like us. But people wanted to be worldly, so the churches split. And now years later, it's normal for the church to do cut their hair, ect. So most people don't think twice about wearing pants, ect. It's become normal. We just don't believe that it's right for us, or people who believe the same way, but just aren't willing.
3 We're not alienating anyone. I don't think you guys understand. When people come to our church, we don't tell them they shouldn't wear pants, cut their hair, ect. We let God convict them of it, and if he doesn't then so be it. It's none of our business. This is the way we live. I am simply telling everybody what we believe, because I don't want them to be confused about us.

So it's right for some people, not right for others?

It becomes wrong when God convicts someone of it. Until he does, then it's not wrong.)

But wouldn't that be like saying it's not wrong to sin until God convicts you of it, wouldn't it? I mean, morality isn't relative. Is it wrong to wear jewelry or isn't it?

I think this would be a case of Adiaphoron http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiaphora, things that are not necessary for faith. Some may think they are wrong and others may not. If it is not specifically commanded or forbidden in the Bible then you go to your conscience and Biblical principles.

[Amethystic]

2. Yeah, but by your logic, if someone's completely godly and righteous, wouldn't they share the same convictions you do?
3. But are you living a testimony, or alienating people with your behavior? (I swear, I'm not trying to kick up dirt, I'm just curious about your opinion. )

2. Not necessarily. That's not what I believe at all. See, all the Churches used to be like us. But people wanted to be worldly, so the churches split. And now years later, it's normal for the church to do cut their hair, ect. So most people don't think twice about wearing pants, ect. It's become normal. We just don't believe that it's right for us, or people who believe the same way, but just aren't willing.
3 We're not alienating anyone. I don't think you guys understand. When people come to our church, we don't tell them they shouldn't wear pants, cut their hair, ect. We let God convict them of it, and if he doesn't then so be it. It's none of our business. This is the way we live. I am simply telling everybody what we believe, because I don't want them to be confused about us.

So it's right for some people, not right for others?

It becomes wrong when God convicts someone of it. Until he does, then it's not wrong.)

But wouldn't that be like saying it's not wrong to sin until God convicts you of it, wouldn't it? I mean, morality isn't relative. Is it wrong to wear jewelry or isn't it?

I think this would be a case of Adiaphoron http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiaphora, things that are not necessary for faith. Some may think they are wrong and others may not. If it is not specifically commanded or forbidden in the Bible then you go to your conscience and Biblical principles.

But then why not do something if it's not going to have any effect on your faith? I mean, as long as something doesn't have a negative social stigma and doesn't contradict God's word, it's okay, right?

[bookworm]

I understand what you’re saying Amethystic. I was thinking the same thing myself.
It depends on what odysseyfan1 is meaning by ‘wrong’ and ‘convict’ in this discussion.
If by wrong he means they are sinful, then you’re right it makes no sense to say it’s wrong for them but not for others. Sin is sin whether you’re convicted of it or not.
But if he means wrong just as potentially harmful (like distracting from God or something) then I can understand what he’s saying. It’s wrong for them because they want to focus more clearly on God, but it may not be wrong for others personally because it’s not, strictly speaking, sinful.

[StrongNChrist]

Sort of like for one person it would be wrong to drink alchohol because it'll cause them to stumble and lose their focus on God and easily become an alchoholic.
While for another person a glass of wine or drinkng alchohol on occasion isn't wrong because they don't have the problem with alchohol like the first person.

[SoccerLOTR]

I understand what you’re saying Amethystic. I was thinking the same thing myself.
It depends on what odysseyfan1is meaning by ‘wrong’ and ‘convict’ in this discussion.
If by wrong he means they are sinful, then you’re right it makes no sense to say it’s wrong for them but not for others. Sin is sin whether you’re convicted of it or not.
But if he means wrong just as potentially harmful (like distracting from God or something) then I can understand what he’s saying. It’s wrong for them because they want to focus more clearly on God, but it may not be wrong for others personally because it’s not, strictly speaking, sinful.

Good way to put it...

[Dr. Watson]

What is the difference between cutting your hair short and putting all your hair up into a bun?

[Peachey Keen]

I want to talk about the speaking in tongues topic.

odysseyfan1 is Pilgrim Holiness and I'm Wesleyan Holiness but we have the same beliefs. I've been in some Holiness people get really blessed by God and some start to shout and some run around the church. Now I don't see this very often. I know some Pentecostals get drunk in the Spirit. This is a different thing. The people I talked about are really sold out to God and sanctified. They don't make a ruckus for show. The Pentecostals do. Why do you think so many people start having convulsions and act "drunk" so often. Because they like it or some like to just be like the others or it's self-induced. When God moves upon you in such a way that it makes you want to shout or sing or whatever, that's great! But that does not happen all the time. You don't try to force it upon yourself or do it so God will give you his prescence and that's when it becomes wrong.

OK, I'm off my soapbox.

[StrongNChrist]

Hey, don't go judging a book by it's cover. and don't go judging a person by their denomination. Not all pentecostals make a "ruckus" as you put it for show.
We all believe in the same God and the same Bible. We just have different views of certain things and different denominations. Doesn't mean one is more right and the other is more wrong. God puts us where He sees fit. If He wants someone to not wear pants but skirts, then that person better wear skirts and not pants but that doesn't mean He's going to have everyone do that.
Sure, some people act that way because others are, but not all of them do. You're grouping them into one bunch and judging them all by their denomination and actions of some of them. That's just as wrong as everything else.

ahem, I'm off my soapbox now too

Or at least that'as how I read it. I could be misreading things

[bookworm]

Peachey Keen, you do realize that what you said has nothing to do with speaking in tongues, right?

[odysseyfan1]

But speaking in tongues is a spiritual gift, according to the Bible...so why would you say that it is wrong/no one does it legitimately?

Where does the Bible say that it's a spiritual gift?

—

—

—

I'm going to quote Albert Barnes here, who is probably my favorite Bible scholars. For the first verse:

To another divers kinds of tongues - The power of speaking various languages; see Act_2:4, Act_2:7-11. This passage also seems to imply that the extraordinary endowments of the Holy Spirit were not conferred on all alike.
To another the interpretation of tongues - The power of interpreting foreign languages; or of interpreting the language which might be used by the “prophets” in their communications; see the note at 1Co_14:27. This was evidently a faculty different from the power of speaking a foreign language; and yet it might be equally useful. It would appear possible that some might have had the power of speaking foreign languages who were not themselves apprized of the meaning, and that interpreters were needful in order to express the sense to the hearers. Or it may have been that in a promiscuous assembly, or in an assembly made up of those who spoke different languages, a part might have understood what was uttered, and it was needful that an interpreter should explain it to the other portion; see the notes on 1Co_14:28.

Every time so far, that I've seen speaking in tongues in the Bible, he compares it with speaking in another language. Are you guys speaking in other languages, or what? I'll leave Barnes alone for now, consider these scriptures: 1st Corinthians 14:5 It basically says, that prophesying is more important than speaking in tongues, unless someone is there to translate to the church what they are saying. And 1st Corinthians 14:40 says to " Let all things be done decently and in order." I'm not saying that everybody that speaks in tongues is trying to show off, but I think that the pentecostals have made up this big thing that the Bible doesn't say to do, and that the Apostles never did.

-- 09 Mar 2011 08:13 am --

2. Yeah, but by your logic, if someone's completely godly and righteous, wouldn't they share the same convictions you do?
3. But are you living a testimony, or alienating people with your behavior? (I swear, I'm not trying to kick up dirt, I'm just curious about your opinion. )

2. Not necessarily. That's not what I believe at all. See, all the Churches used to be like us. But people wanted to be worldly, so the churches split. And now years later, it's normal for the church to do cut their hair, ect. So most people don't think twice about wearing pants, ect. It's become normal. We just don't believe that it's right for us, or people who believe the same way, but just aren't willing.
3 We're not alienating anyone. I don't think you guys understand. When people come to our church, we don't tell them they shouldn't wear pants, cut their hair, ect. We let God convict them of it, and if he doesn't then so be it. It's none of our business. This is the way we live. I am simply telling everybody what we believe, because I don't want them to be confused about us.

So it's right for some people, not right for others?

It becomes wrong when God convicts someone of it. Until he does, then it's not wrong.)

But wouldn't that be like saying it's not wrong to sin until God convicts you of it, wouldn't it? I mean, morality isn't relative. Is it wrong to wear jewelry or isn't it?

StrongNChrist said:

God puts us where He sees fit. If He wants someone to not wear pants but skirts, then that person better wear skirts and not pants but that doesn't mean He's going to have everyone do that.

That's basically what I've been trying to say the whole time. I think I made it clear, but maybe I didn't.

-- 09 Mar 2011 08:15 am --

2. Yeah, but by your logic, if someone's completely godly and righteous, wouldn't they share the same convictions you do?
3. But are you living a testimony, or alienating people with your behavior? (I swear, I'm not trying to kick up dirt, I'm just curious about your opinion. )

2. Not necessarily. That's not what I believe at all. See, all the Churches used to be like us. But people wanted to be worldly, so the churches split. And now years later, it's normal for the church to do cut their hair, ect. So most people don't think twice about wearing pants, ect. It's become normal. We just don't believe that it's right for us, or people who believe the same way, but just aren't willing.
3 We're not alienating anyone. I don't think you guys understand. When people come to our church, we don't tell them they shouldn't wear pants, cut their hair, ect. We let God convict them of it, and if he doesn't then so be it. It's none of our business. This is the way we live. I am simply telling everybody what we believe, because I don't want them to be confused about us.

So it's right for some people, not right for others?

It becomes wrong when God convicts someone of it. Until he does, then it's not wrong.)

But wouldn't that be like saying it's not wrong to sin until God convicts you of it, wouldn't it? I mean, morality isn't relative. Is it wrong to wear jewelry or isn't it?

I think this would be a case of Adiaphoron http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiaphora, things that are not necessary for faith. Some may think they are wrong and others may not. If it is not specifically commanded or forbidden in the Bible then you go to your conscience and Biblical principles.

Not exactly. It is important to our faith. Check out what StrongNChrist said.

-- 09 Mar 2011 08:17 am --

2. Yeah, but by your logic, if someone's completely godly and righteous, wouldn't they share the same convictions you do?
3. But are you living a testimony, or alienating people with your behavior? (I swear, I'm not trying to kick up dirt, I'm just curious about your opinion. )

2. Not necessarily. That's not what I believe at all. See, all the Churches used to be like us. But people wanted to be worldly, so the churches split. And now years later, it's normal for the church to do cut their hair, ect. So most people don't think twice about wearing pants, ect. It's become normal. We just don't believe that it's right for us, or people who believe the same way, but just aren't willing.
3 We're not alienating anyone. I don't think you guys understand. When people come to our church, we don't tell them they shouldn't wear pants, cut their hair, ect. We let God convict them of it, and if he doesn't then so be it. It's none of our business. This is the way we live. I am simply telling everybody what we believe, because I don't want them to be confused about us.

So it's right for some people, not right for others?

It becomes wrong when God convicts someone of it. Until he does, then it's not wrong.)

But wouldn't that be like saying it's not wrong to sin until God convicts you of it, wouldn't it? I mean, morality isn't relative. Is it wrong to wear jewelry or isn't it?

I think this would be a case of Adiaphoron http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiaphora, things that are not necessary for faith. Some may think they are wrong and others may not. If it is not specifically commanded or forbidden in the Bible then you go to your conscience and Biblical principles.

But then why not do something if it's not going to have any effect on your faith? I mean, as long as something doesn't have a negative social stigma and doesn't contradict God's word, it's okay, right?

We don't. I don't agree with Joanne. (No offense Joanne )

-- 09 Mar 2011 08:24 am --

Sort of like for one person it would be wrong to drink alchohol because it'll cause them to stumble and lose their focus on God and easily become an alchoholic.
While for another person a glass of wine or drinkng alchohol on occasion isn't wrong because they don't have the problem with alchohol like the first person.

If you think that drinking alcohol is OK for somebody, we could have a big debate here. I can bring up a million verses that say not to drink.

Proverbs 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."
Isaiah 5:11
Isiah 5:22
Isaiah 28:1
Isaiah 28:7
Ephesians 5:18

Those are just some, I could probably list more.

-- 09 Mar 2011 08:27 am --

What is the difference between cutting your hair short and putting all your hair up into a bun?

Bun hair is long (you don't have to put it in a bun, you can keep it down), cut hair is obviously not long

-- 09 Mar 2011 08:28 am --

I want to talk about the speaking in tongues topic.

odysseyfan1 is Pilgrim Holiness and I'm Wesleyan Holiness but we have the same beliefs. I've been in some Holiness people get really blessed by God and some start to shout and some run around the church. Now I don't see this very often. I know some Pentecostals get drunk in the Spirit. This is a different thing. The people I talked about are really sold out to God and sanctified. They don't make a ruckus for show. The Pentecostals do. Why do you think so many people start having convulsions and act "drunk" so often. Because they like it or some like to just be like the others or it's self-induced. When God moves upon you in such a way that it makes you want to shout or sing or whatever, that's great! But that does not happen all the time. You don't try to force it upon yourself or do it so God will give you his prescence and that's when it becomes wrong.

OK, I'm off my soapbox.

Thank you Peachey Keen.

-- 09 Mar 2011 08:29 am --

Peachey Keen, you do realize that what you said has nothing to do with speaking in tongues, right?

What Peachey Keen said had lots to do with speaking in tongues.

[Joanne]

No offense taken but I am confused... I thought I was agreeing with SnC.

[StrongNChrist]

Jesus drank wine Are you saying He was wrong to do so?

The Bible talks mainly of getting drunk. Getting drunk is what's wrong, drinking alchohol in of itself is not. Now if it causes a brother to stumble, then naturally you avoid it. But if it doesn't and it doesn't cause you to stumble, then it's okay. Wine, in face, in certain quantities and only if you can handle it and are used to it, has proven to be healthy for you because of what it's made from. So actually if it doesn't get you drunk or cause your brother to stumble it's not really wrong.

I looked up thefreedictionary.com the meaning of speaking in tongues and got

The ability or phenomenon to utter words or sounds of a language unknown to the speaker, especially as an expression of religious ecstasy

That pretty much means it can be any language, be it another countrie's language or the language of the angels. It's just a language that the speaker doesn't know and would technically never be able to do.

I get what Joanne's saying and I see how she was agreeing with me. Here's the deal. I like to challenge people, see how strongly they truly believe something and how much they know about it or whether or not they're just going by what their taught.
Here's what I believe. I wear pants. I hate skirts. I keep my hair as short as possible - not too short, because boyish cuts just don't suit girls - I believe in speaking in tongues. I don't do it myself but I have witnessed it happening and have no doubt it's God. I know with no doubt that God is not up in heaven ready to convict me for this. I'm not doing wrong, I'm not sinning, in these cases.
I also believe in doing what God tells you. If God tells you to wear skirts, ladies, wear skirts. If God doesn't then you don't have to unless you want to. Sometimes God has people do something others don't have to just to test their faith or perhaps for other reasons unknown to us. But you gotta be sure it's from God and not just like something you were always raised to believe and your parents believe it so you gotta do it too. It has to be from God, not parents or others. Sure, you obey your parents. But you don't become a Christian because your parents are Christians. Same thing with this.

Did any of that make sense?