We are losing freedom

[Blitz]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46160046/
The effort of a girl to remove even more Christianity.

[Knight Fisher]

Technically she's right. This whole thing is dumb but it doesn't make that less true. With the laws how they are. If they had a thing on the opposite wall saying there is no God. That legally could be protested too. Dumb, but we are stuck with it.

[Blitz]

Yea but that isn't right because they can legally push evolution on students.

[Knight Fisher]

No technically Evolution is a scientific disagreement, not religious. I'm not saying I agree with it. But that's the facts.

[Blitz]

Actually it almost is because it is a faith you must believe something came from nothing if you couldn't see it.

[John Chrysostom]

I think you're making the mistake of combining the theory of evolution with the big bang theory. The theory of evolution is simply about how life changed over the generation to the forms we see today. That theory and the big bang theory i.e. the theory that something came from nothing are not linked in the sense that you can not believe in the big bang theory and still believe in evolution. For example Gregor Mendel who was the founder of modern genetics was a Augustine monk and did not believe in the big bang theory yet his work are considered key in understanding change in life over generations, i.e. evolution.

The debate about evolution is one of science not faith. As for the topic of this thread, if education is to remain public then the institutions of public education can not hold up one religion over another, the posting of a public prayer in the judeo-christian tradition clearly does that. Fisher makes a good point that likewise a banner that read "There is no God" should be taken down too.

[Blitz]

I'm not talking about the theories but about the thing that in any case, in schools evolution is being taught and almost being forced on the student by not talking about other ideas. One time a school was going to be sued for teaching not only evolution but other ideas. And Evolution is a faith because no one has written record or any other proof that real science can support. All of it is frauds and theories which change with the tide. And yet schools get rid of one thing which never changes.

[TigerintheShadows]

I'm not going to say anything about the prayer itself; I might start ranting and that's never a good idea for me. However, as far as evolution is concerned, the teaching that organisms changed and adapted to their environments over time is neither biblical nor unbiblical. If you believe in micro evolution, you're scientifically sound--and biblically sound, if you also believe in God as the intelligent designer. But if you're teaching that it all happened by chance mutations, that's another thing entirely.

As far as the girl herself goes, I think that she should have questioned a little further what she was taught and how it compares to what other people raised Christian are taught instead of deciding point-blank, "What I was taught is wrong and so therefore God doesn't exist". I think her theology is incorrect; if she thought that God being there for you meant that He would give you whatever you want, she is sadly mistaken (and a tad selfish, whether she realizes it or not). I also think that if what that class president said was true and she was mocking religion publicly, she's really making herself look bad. I'm not saying she deserves death threats or anything; she doesn't. But she's bringing her ill-wishers on herself.

[John Chrysostom]

Conquestor: The topic of this thread is not evolution, there are several threads for that. I will say I agree with Tiger and say that evolution is a valid Christian view.

As to the girls actions, yes it would be ideal if she was a Christian but that in no way excuses the actions of the Christians who are not loving her. As for the banner itself I think the girl has a right to complain about an overt religious message displayed in the public school she is required to go to. I mean if the roles were reversed would you be cool with a banner that said there is no god?

[Blitz]

And I disagree with what Tiger though I won't talk about it hear. I would be all right with one only if I were allowed to hang up my own sign for Christianity. Then it would be true freedom like we have here in Ghana.

[John Chrysostom]

I have no idea if that option was explored or not, the only problem I foresee with that would be how many banners would you have to put up to please everyone?

Anyway I very much disagree that this means we're losing freedom, I think here in America at least we have a great deal of freedom compared to everywhere else. I think we need to refrain from playing the martyr while there are actual martyrs dying elsewhere: http://www.prescottorthodox.org/2012/01 ... -in-syria/

[Blitz]

I now very well my self there are martyrs close by us in fact. And yes that option is what happen every day. In a debate that is how it is. And many people are saved in debates.

[John Chrysostom]

I'm not sure what you mean by people being saved in a debate, could you clarify?

[TigerintheShadows]

And conquestor, what you've posted implied that you're talking about America. There may be martyrs in Ghana, but nobody's shooting American priests or Christians. Ayn Rand is right; we've got no call to be claiming that we're so oppressed when we aren't.

[Blitz]

Actually I am only talking about other countries [there are no martyrs in Ghana though] but debates often times against evolutionist show them the truth and often times they convert.

[John Chrysostom]

I am not a big believer in conversion through polemics and as stated earlier I don't think belief in evolution requires conversion. Scripture does not prove or disprove evolution.

[TigerintheShadows]

Well, it disproves the specific theory--as in, it blatantly states that we were created--but it doesn't disprove the ability to adapt to our environments, which is another definition of evolution.

[Amethystic]

On Christian persecution: just because there are "worse" injustices elsewhere doesn't mean we should ignore the injustices that are all around us. Otherwise, what's keeping our injustices from worsening?

On evolution: Personally I'm a Creationist, but I'm not going to argue the issue to death. We shouldn't rely on science to justify our faith, otherwise it isn't really faith at all.

[John Chrysostom]

No of course we shouldn't ignore injustices but is the taking down of this banner really an injustice?

It seems to me the people defending this banner by attacking her instead of loving her are the ones in the wrong here. This prayer isn't in a church, private property, or a public location but a school that this girl is required to attend. What harm is there in letting this go and taking the prayer down?

[TigerintheShadows]

On evolution: Personally I'm a Creationist, but I'm not going to argue the issue to death. We shouldn't rely on science to justify our faith, otherwise it isn't really faith at all.

Well, no, we shouldn't. But science, math, and history all do help to prove points. If we can't prove that our faith is logically sound, what good is it?