The Church's Roles

[The Kings Daughter]

I think it's quite plain throughout the Old and New Testament that the role of the man is that of leadership, and the role of women is to encourage and supply help to the men. Last year I was made even more aware of this after listening to a seminar on it.

So I was excitedly thinking about what I could help with, what ministries. But there seems to be lack of leadership and initiative in the teen young men at my church. Thus my question. What can I, or any young woman do, to encourage men to grasp their role?

[John Chrysostom]

It's my opinion that while women should not be priest/pastors there are many other roles, including leadership ones, they can fill. I think that if there's a ministry you feel passionate about you should step up and organize that ministry.

St. Paul in his epistle to the Romans says this "I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea, that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her in whatever business she has need of you; for indeed she has been a helper of many and of myself also."

[The Kings Daughter]

I've been told a women can start something, but once a good Christian guy comes along hand it over to him. Thoughts on that?

[Josef1004]

I think it's quite plain throughout the Old and New Testament that the role of the man is that of leadership, and the role of women is to encourage and supply help to the men. Last year I was made even more aware of this after listening to a seminar on it.

So I was excitedly thinking about what I could help with, what ministries. But there seems to be lack of leadership and initiative in the teen young men at my church. Thus my question. What can I, or any young woman do, to encourage men to grasp their role?

What did Hannah do when she saw that the Eli's sons were not grasping their role? (And don't say "She had a baby." I'm thinking about before that.)

I've been told a women can start something, but once a good Christian guy comes along hand it over to him. Thoughts on that?

Ayn Rand's post already kind of blew that out of the water.

[Whitty Whit]

This question vaguely reminds me this site's view on women leadership.

I personally don't think it's wrong for women to hold any type of leadership. Whether or not there is biblical proof for my personal belief, I don't know other than the passage Ayn Rand talked about. There are probably others, just none that I can find.

[John Chrysostom]

The Kings Daughter, look at what St. Paul is saying about Phoebe, he is saying that everyone in the church, not just other women but men too, should assist her in whatever business she is doing. He does not say men take over for her. There are many example in the early church of women running ministries; St. Olympias is an example from the 4th century that comes to mind http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympias_the_Deaconess

Whit: Question would you say that women could or should be pastors or priests too?

[Whitty Whit]

Whit: Question would you say that women could or should be pastors or priests too?

I would have to say women should not be pastors based on 1 Timothy 3. V. 1 "This [is] a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work."

Not woman. I assume it's referring to the male gender desiring the office of a bishop (or pastor) because it says "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife,"

[Termite]

Yeah. I mean, I'm fine with Beth Moore and Joyce Meyer: they're speakers. They could be invited to speak at a church. However, shepherds in the Old Testament were male. There's a reason that is used as an example. I don't think women should be in the ultimate level of authority, but leadership is no problem.

And I strongly disagree with turning things over to a guy just because he's male. There's lots of things I can do better than guys. Unless I heard the voice of God telling me to step back and move onto something else, there's no way I'd give up control just because a male comes along. That's heading towards sexism, I think.

[TigerintheShadows]

I agree, Termite. Honestly, I'm all for the traditional gender roles in the home--that is, the husband leading and the wife helping--and the church is to reflect it (or perhaps vice versa). Men should be taking over the pastorate, but women, as they are to help men, can and should take over leadership of other things, such as student ministries or music ministries. (However, politics and the workplace are fair game for both genders, methinks.)

[The Kings Daughter]

I think it's quite plain throughout the Old and New Testament that the role of the man is that of leadership, and the role of women is to encourage and supply help to the men. Last year I was made even more aware of this after listening to a seminar on it.

So I was excitedly thinking about what I could help with, what ministries. But there seems to be lack of leadership and initiative in the teen young men at my church. Thus my question. What can I, or any young woman do, to encourage men to grasp their role?

What did Hannah do when she saw that the Eli's sons were not grasping their role? (And don't say "She had a baby." I'm thinking about before that.)

What did she do?

I've been told a women can start something, but once a good Christian guy comes along hand it over to him. Thoughts on that?

Ayn Rand's post already kind of blew that out of the water.

My mistake, I misread his post.

I do remember all the women Paul mentioned, but I've heard the extremes of both sides, so I'm trying to figure out the middle here.

And I strongly disagree with turning things over to a guy just because he's male. There's lots of things I can do better than guys. Unless I heard the voice of God telling me to step back and move onto something else, there's no way I'd give up control just because a male comes along. That's heading towards sexism, I think.

I was trying to imply that if a specific male comes along that has a heart for that ministry, it would be better for him to lead you in it that you to lead him. Not that you can just start projects, and them give them to the men to do.

[John Chrysostom]

Why can't two people run a ministry together? It seems to me the idea that the man is given automatic deference just because of his gender is silly. For example what if even though he had a heart for that ministry he was a terrible leader? If that were the case he should choose to be a servant and follow the leader God has called, whether they be male or female, and in the end a leader should be willing to be a servant. So in my opinion a man who came to you and said that he needs to take over the ministry as a leader has just disqualified himself from the leadership position. The flip side of that is of course that you should be willing to be a servant too but it has nothing to do with gender.

[The Kings Daughter]

Why can't two people run a ministry together? It seems to me the idea that the man is given automatic deference just because of his gender is silly. For example what if even though he had a heart for that ministry he was a terrible leader? If that were the case he should choose to be a servant and follow the leader God has called, whether they be male or female, and in the end a leader should be willing to be a servant. So in my opinion a man who came to you and said that he needs to take over the ministry as a leader has just disqualified himself from the leadership position. The flip side of that is of course that you should be willing to be a servant too but it has nothing to do with gender.

Simply put, there's nothing wrong with that. I keep describing my point wrong, twould seem

[SoccerLOTR]

{in walks the person who all are about to stone to death for what she says}

My pastor is a female. She is an excellent pastor and was called by God to start a church in the area that I am in. She's followed that calling and the ministry has been majorly blessed. I have no doubts that it is God's will. I also had a roommate who is in ministry--getting her master's degree right now, and she will be a pastor. Again, I have no doubt she was called by God into that profession. 1 Timothy 3? Think of the context. Do you really think Paul was writing to people who would even consider the idea that women could be educated enough to teach? That wasn't the focus--not the concern at the time of his writing to Timothy.

Yeah. I mean, I'm fine with Beth Moore and Joyce Meyer: they're speakers. They could be invited to speak at a church. However, shepherds in the Old Testament were male. There's a reason that is used as an example. I don't think women should be in the ultimate level of authority, but leadership is no problem.

{confused at what shepherds have to do with this topic}

Why can't two people run a ministry together? It seems to me the idea that the man is given automatic deference just because of his gender is silly. For example what if even though he had a heart for that ministry he was a terrible leader? If that were the case he should choose to be a servant and follow the leader God has called, whether they be male or female, and in the end a leader should be willing to be a servant. So in my opinion a man who came to you and said that he needs to take over the ministry as a leader has just disqualified himself from the leadership position. The flip side of that is of course that you should be willing to be a servant too but it has nothing to do with gender.

agreed. If you see a ministry that needs doing, I think you should pray about it and look into getting involved. Nothing wrong with that!

[TigerintheShadows]

The reason why Paul talked about women keeping silent wasn't about educated women--women were fairly educated back then, and just as many men were uneducated as women were. If it had to do with women being uneducated, why point-blank state that women couldn't preach if the lack of education could apply to men as well? It's all about the order of creation--"for God created Adam first, then Eve" (or something like that). Paul didn't want women in the head pastoral roles because of his interpretation of Scripture that men, being created first as the head of the household, should head the household of the church.

Paul didn't say "Women are stupid and should stay in the kitchen and never ever teach EVER". What he said was "Women should not head the church". Back then, the one gathering was all that they had; they didn't have all the youth, music, arts, or whatever ministries we do. If a woman feels called to one of those roles, they can and should fill it. But I, personally, do not believe in women in the senior pastorate.

[John Chrysostom]

I think that women should not be ordained, I think they can be missionary evangelists, church-planters, teachers, healers, preachers, apologists, spiritual mothers, counselors, miracle-workers, martyrs, iconographers, hymnographers, and theologians. But I do not think that they should be standing at the alter and administrating the sacraments.

I think this for several reasons, all the Apostles were men; you can say it was because of the times but in St. Paul's letter to Timothy he clearly allows for women Deacons, they are not saying women have no leadership roles in the church but they are not to be Presbyters or Bishops. I think this distinction is important and we should stick to these instructions given to us by the Apostles. Lastly the Presbyter and Bishop are to be an icon or symbol of Christ and Christ is male.

[TigerintheShadows]

Yeah. I mean, I'm fine with Beth Moore and Joyce Meyer: they're speakers. They could be invited to speak at a church. However, shepherds in the Old Testament were male. There's a reason that is used as an example. I don't think women should be in the ultimate level of authority, but leadership is no problem.

{confused at what shepherds have to do with this topic}

Because shepherds are often used to represent pastors and leaders of the church--for example, Jesus as the "Good Shepherd". Because shepherds were male, I think Termite is saying that pastors, the ultimate level of authority in a church and the shepherd of the "sheep", should be male as well.

(Not sure if that is what you meant, Termite, but I thought I'd throw in my view. )

[John Chrysostom]

Shepherd was used in many Early Church writings to refer to the Presbyter or Priest, who were male, however until the reformation Bishops were a higher authority in the Church as Presbyters or Priests were and continue to be representatives of the Bishops.

[SoccerLOTR]

The reason why Paul talked about women keeping silent wasn't about educated women--women were fairly educated back then, and just as many men were uneducated as women were. If it had to do with women being uneducated, why point-blank state that women couldn't preach if the lack of education could apply to men as well? It's all about the order of creation--"for God created Adam first, then Eve" (or something like that). Paul didn't want women in the head pastoral roles because of his interpretation of Scripture that men, being created first as the head of the household, should head the household of the church.

Paul didn't say "Women are stupid and should stay in the kitchen and never ever teach EVER". What he said was "Women should not head the church". Back then, the one gathering was all that they had; they didn't have all the youth, music, arts, or whatever ministries we do. If a woman feels called to one of those roles, they can and should fill it. But I, personally, do not believe in women in the senior pastorate.

Now we're looking at a different part of the Bible. And taking things out of context. In that section, Paul was talking about the problems that that specific church was having and giving a guideline to help fix their current struggles. The people to whom Timothy was ministering came from a background that glorified women as messengers of their goddess, and hence, the culture had women suppressing men and usurping any authority by them. This letter was a reaction to that, saying that the women here were to learn submission and NOT follow their old way of life. As Ayn Rand said, it's clear that there were women in the Bible who ministered and were in teaching positions (though yes, we disagree on the level of authority), so I see nothing wrong with women preaching.

Oh, and the verse where Paul says man is the head of woman? In Greek, there are multiple words for "head" as we think of it. The version of "head" as in "leader or authority" is a different word than the one used here. The word used here typically means something along the lines of "origin" or "source"...here, I found this link that has a good explanation. http://godswordtowomen.org/head.htm

[John Chrysostom]

I would say yes we do disagree on the level of authority all though mostly because we disagree on what form leaders should take in the church, priests and bishops on my side and pastors for yours. But yes I see nothing wrong with women preaching and teaching but I don't see those activities as being inherently tied to the kind of authority I would say my priest and bishop have.

I don't quite agree with your view on the translation of the word head, I believe that yes in general man is not given automatic authority over women but I wouldn't agree with you if you carried that reasoning over into marriage.

[King Butter Turtle]

If I can jump in here;

I see no reason the church should be led any differently than the household but, in the household, is the man really the absolute head? I thought both parents together were the head of the household and needed each other and a strong marriage in order to be good parents and have a stable/prosperous (those aren't the right words) family. And, that's what makes single parenting so hard and that's a major issue of homosexual families, right? Now, yes, wives are supposed to submit to their husbands but, it's not like 'husband' > 'wife' > 'kids', is it? It's more like this diagram. V



Now the husband seems to have more authority but, that's only because his traditional roles are more... 'authoritative'. The wife's leadership roles are just as important, they're just different. Men and women were created differently - each with their own inclinations and disinclinations but, they fit beautifully together like puzzle pieces. Why should the church be any different? Yes, men will tend to be naturally inclined towards teaching/doctrine/administration but, aren't encouragement/counseling/relationship building just as important of a part of the pastorate? So, don't churches with only a male pastor have a lop-sided triangle? For that matter, don't churches with only a female pastor? The great thing about the way God created men and women is that, while we each have our shortfalls, the others' strengths tend to fit into those gaps. We need each other - in life and in ministry. So, if you ask me, churches should ideally be pastored by married couples who work as teams and general ministries (unless they're geared towards a certain gender - i.e. - an unplanned pregnancy counseling center) should have both men and women in leadership positions.

As for your original question, TKD, I don't think there's much you can do. Generally teenage guys in the church who are lacking initiative aren't going to be very open-eared to criticism from... their female peers. I think that 'encouragement of men to grasp their role' is better done by other, more mature, men. But, also, don't feel like the only thing you can do in the church is help men. In the body of Christ, we should all pitch in however we can.