This Needs to Stop! (PETITION)

[snubs]

Rise up ToOers!!! DESTROY NOVA... err.... FAIO!!!!

^This.


I never listen to AIO episodes online... I just never wanted to, or had any real need. However, I know if I did, and found that site, I probably would never even think that they were doing it illegally. So, like Catspaw mentioned, there could be people using the site unaware that it is wrong. So, it's a good thing you brought this to attention, American Eagle.

[The Top Crusader]

But yeah isn't that site just finding places where it is legally uploaded and organizing it for everyone? >_>

[bookworm]

But yeah isn't that site just finding places where it is legally uploaded and organizing it for everyone? >_>

Not exactly, they are finding all uploads and organizing them for everyone. Some may be legal, but some may not be.

I completely agree with Top's take on this. I believe a majority of people that listen to things free do it because they wouldn’t pay for them. I know that’s how I am. Sites like that can actually be good for the company. The company isn’t loosing money because the people wouldn’t buy the episodes in the first place. By being able to listen free, FOTF is getting their product spread to people who otherwise wouldn’t listen. If someone heard it for free and likes it, they can then buy it.
It seems to me to be a win-win.

And as for boycotting the site, that would do nothing to aid your cause and isn’t a logical action anyway. The site is doing nothing illegal. They upload no content, they only link to already uploaded content. If you’re upset about this, boycott the people doing the uploading, that is where the problem lies, if you see it as a problem.

[odysseyfan1]

But yeah isn't that site just finding places where it is legally uploaded and organizing it for everyone? >_>

Not exactly, they are finding all uploads and organizing them for everyone. Some may be legal, but some may not be.

I completely agree with Top's take on this. I believe a majority of people that listen to things free do it because they wouldn’t pay for them. I know that’s how I am. Sites like that can actually be good for the company. The company isn’t loosing money because the people wouldn’t buy the episodes in the first place. By being able to listen free, FOTF is getting their product spread to people who otherwise wouldn’t listen. If someone heard it for free and likes it, they can then buy it.
It seems to me to be a win-win.

And as for boycotting the site, that would do nothing to aid your cause and isn’t a logical action anyway. The site is doing nothing illegal. They upload no content, they only link to already uploaded content. If you’re upset about this, boycott the people doing the uploading, that is where the problem lies, if you see it as a problem.

Ah, Bookworm. Problem there. They can listen to episodes on Whitsend.org. Why would they buy it if they have a site that provides every single episode? (At least they used to have almost all of them. Not any more. )

[bookworm]

They can listen to episodes on Whitsend.org.

I just tried to listen to The Final Conflict there. I couldn’t do it.
I don’t see your point.

[snubs]

I don't see your point either..

[bookworm]

Why would they buy it if they have a site that provides every single episode?

That’s where the ethics come in. Not for the website, for the person using it.
Why would they pay for it? Because it’s the right thing to do. There’s no practical incentive, as you said they can hear it for free, but they know they should give money to the company for it.
That’s the difference.
Try this example to see what I mean:

Album X (I don’t know a good one to use for this, so you can pick one.)
Mediocre episodes, not really that great. I wouldn’t pay money for it. I use the site to listen for free because I want to hear them, but after I listen I decide it’s not worth paying for. FOTF looses nothing. I don’t pay for the episodes, but I wouldn’t anyway if the site didn’t exist.

Album 25
Great Dr. Blackgaard story. I’m hooked. I would pay for this one. So I listen for free, decide it’s awesome, and buy it. FOTF loses nothing. In fact, they gain a sale.

[odysseyfan1]

@ Bookworm and Snubs: Bookworm said: "By being able to listen free, FOTF is getting their product spread to people who otherwise wouldn’t listen. If someone heard it for free and likes it, they can then buy it." My point was, that if they want to listen to an episode to see if they like it, they can go to WhitsEnd.org. They don't need to hear every single episode to see if they like it, cuz then they've heard every single episode and there's no need for them to buy them.

[Jacob Isom]

I've decided from the get-go that the Odyssey Scoop will not link to FAIO because it causes some controversy. You won't ever see it there for that very reason (or any "free" download sites).

[Angel]

Faio is the ultimate Adventures In Odyssey fan-site.

....yeah, not liking them so far.

The huge problem with this site, is that they're treading on very thin ice. I read through their FAQs, and it's no surprise a lot of the questions are about whether or not it's okay to use the site. The issue that I saw, that does have the potential to make it illegal is that people can download illegally using the site. I've read some of what they've said, and it sounds like they support FOTF honestly, but I'll echo what Leonard Meltsner (the user) said about "right, right" doing something right for the right reason. (using AIO episodes for support, ftw!) Faio has the right reason in their mission, but what they're doing [even they admit] could easily cause a problem. For that reason, it is a risky site.

But I do want to quote them on this:

What FOTF Says
"Because these high-caliber productions involve a significant financial investment and require a blend of gifted actors and actresses and a talented production team, we offer them for a fee to help cover our expenses. If we can't cover our costs, we can't produce more episodes." - Nathan Hoobler, employee for Adventures In Odyssey

In other words, if people use Faio INSTEAD of buying their favorite albums, Focus on the Family could suffer greatly. While Faio is generally not "bad" and is certainly legal, it could be abused just like any other great service. It's not up to Faio whether Focus is hurt or not, it's up to you, the user, to show your support for this great Christian product.

(emphasis w/ bold my own)

And I think a few of us need to re-read the post that Catspaw wrote. There are users on there who don't realize what's going on with the site, and it's important that we are aware of what's happening. Right now, they technically aren't doing anything illegal because of streaming, but it can easily become a trap for those who don't understand when to legally download. A huge thanks to AE for making this thread.

[snubs]

^I understand and agree with what you are saying, Angel.

[bookworm]

My point was, that if they want to listen to an episode to see if they like it, they can go to WhitsEnd.org.

No they can’t, I just demonstrated that the episode I wanted to listen to isn’t on there.

cuz then they've heard every single episode and there's no need for them to buy them.

No, like I said if they hear them it’s more reason to buy them, because they know they appreciate them.

[odysseyfan1]

My point was, that if they want to listen to an episode to see if they like it, they can go to WhitsEnd.org.

No they can’t, I just demonstrated that the episode I wanted to listen to isn’t on there.

cuz then they've heard every single episode and there's no need for them to buy them.

No, like I said if they hear them it’s more reason to buy them, because they know they appreciate them.

But why buy when you can listen for free??? WhitsEnd has I think about a month full of episodes. If you want the privilege of listening to whichever one you want, buy your own.

[Catspaw]

I think people don't consider digital theft in the same way (rather they should or not) because yes, stealing a CD is literally costing a company money. Downloading an MP3 isn't losing anyone any money, even if it is indeed theft.

It is still costing the company money in the sense that they are not receiving the money that they would if you bought it instead of getting it unethically for free. The actual disc isn't the biggest part of the cost for a company - the content on it it what costs a lot to develop and produce, whether it's music or an audio drama or a movie or whatever. I can see your differentiation between physical and digital property, but let's call theft what it is. Downloading an MP3 that cost a company money to make that one purposely finds an unethical way to get for free when the company is selling it is still costing the company money. You cost them a sale. That's money gone. That's unethical. That's theft.

FOTF brings this on themselves: people want the hard to find episodes, or can't afford the albums so they use these sites. They would not have this problem if they would release the hard to find episodes on CD. They need to do that and they should do that. I've been saying it for years. If they can re release the Gold Audio, Novacom plus all of the other albums, they can release the episodes not on CD.

That is a very slim minority. There are 53 AIO albums that are available legitimately (not including the special sets), and a few episodes that are unreleased that hardcore fans really want. A site like FAIO isn't of any use to the hardcore fan trying to track down those few missing episodes. They're a problem because they are making all the other episodes available that are readily available for purchase in a number of stores and websites. If somebody can't afford the album, they can listen with a clear conscience to whatever is available at whitsend.org. There's a limited number available, but it's always changing, so people can still listen to lots of episodes. Some libraries have albums that people can borrow. Maybe there's a friend that they can borrow an album from. I've lent my AIO sets to lots of friends over the years.

My point was, that if they want to listen to an episode to see if they like it, they can go to WhitsEnd.org.

No they can’t, I just demonstrated that the episode I wanted to listen to isn’t on there.

You could not listen to the one specific episode you wanted to hear, but I think odysseyfan1 is saying that if you wanted to get a feel for the show in general, you could listen to an episode and see what you think. Not any episode to see if you like that specific episode, but if you want to see what AIO is about, you can listen to a decent selection on the official website.

[Reddo]

I also would like to see this site goes down, the site itself isn't really illegal, but it makes it very easy to find episodes that have been uploaded illegally (anything not on FOTF servers was illegally uploaded, that includes things like grooveshark and youtube). some of these it even makes it very download them directly to your computer if you just look at the source code for the page.

When i created the audio player for the wiki (http://www.aiowiki.com/wiki/Audio_Player) I was very carefully to make it so that there is no way to download the episodes for free and that episodes don't stick around for longer than the month that the official player keeps theirs up for.

ALso FAIO does make money from the site, they have ads posted and make a fair chunk of change from them (>$100/month).

[Lee]

Just so everyone knows, I have no plans to use FAIO in the future. I already own a mixture of tapes and CDs that total up to 43 albums, so if I ever did use it, I would be listening to episodes I already own anyway. Do you guys have a problem with that? It's not making me not buy Odyssey, because I still plan to complete my collection, whether I can listen to it online or not! I think the real problem is (forgive me if I'm echoing previous statements.) that people who don't own hardly any odyssey are using this instead of buying episodes. I'm definitely not hurting FOTF if I ever use it because I still purchase AIO.

I definitely think it would be great if we could start a petition against them though. I'll be the first to sign it!

[odysseyfan1]

You could not listen to the one specific episode you wanted to hear, but I think odysseyfan1 is saying that if you wanted to get a feel for the show in general, you could listen to an episode and see what you think. Not any episode to see if you like that specific episode, but if you want to see what AIO is about, you can listen to a decent selection on the official website.

Thank you Catspaw.

About the Grooveshark issue, do you guys realize that if Focus on the Family would register with Grooveshark, they would receive money? (I believe every time an episode get's listened to.) If FAIO would close down, then AIO could upload their episodes to Grooveshark, all the FAIO'ers would go their, and Odyssey would get money. Just a thought...

[Mimi]

cuz then they've heard every single episode and there's no need for them to buy them.

No, like I said if they hear them it’s more reason to buy them, because they know they appreciate them.

Bookworm, as a fan of AIO who has Never actually bought any AIO (although I want to), if I knew there was a legitimate way of listening to almost any episode for free, I would use it. Not only would I use it, I wold most likely not buy any of the available episodes, because, why buy when you can easily access the episodes free?

Similarly, a casual AIO listener- one that isn't looking to collect albums or own them all- would most likely just go to FAIO whenever they want to listen to episodes they like.

[Dallas R.]

I'm basically with Top on this one. Like lee, I own over 40 albums of odyssey. I'm just missing the first nine. I want to hear these shows, but they just aren't worth buying in my opinion. Are they classics? Sure. Worth listening to once? Absolutely. Worth paying $15 at least per album to get? Not really. At that rate, I can fairly easily live without, or wait until they air on the radio again in 2013.
I know it's still not right to not support focus, but it isn't as if i don't want to support them. I have. Many times. But I'd rather support them by buying better, new albums as they come along.
I don't find sites like faio nearly as Agravating as finding the entire collection of odyssey for sale on eBay in all illegal downloads. Now that hurts focus! And people have done it And for the record, I didn't use faio either until I saw discussion about it on this site. Sorry AE. I know that's what you dont want to happen. But just saying'.

[American Eagle]

Many thanks to Catspaw, Reddo and everyone else who defended this while I was away for the night.

To AIOP and Dallas, now I have to feel responsible for hurting FOTF further. Thanks a lot. To prevent this from happening again, I've removed the link.

I HAVE CREATED A PETITION.

To the webmaster of FAIO:

We kindly ask you to remove your website. Yes, you are not directly breaking the law by linking to the illegal uploads, but we believe that it is not only unethical, but that it is hurting Focus on the Family.

Please, for the sake of Adventures in Odyssey, Focus on the Family, and the future of these companies, please take your site down.

Sincerly,
the signers of this petition.

I promise you... the petition is very easy to sign. All you need is a name (ToO username is fine) and email address (which is not shown). If you use Facebook, you can sign it with just a click or two! Please take the time to visit the petition site.

If this petition fails, oh well. I'm hoping to collect at least 100 signatures before '54 releases as a digital download.