The Town of Odyssey

I just listened to the episode "The Curse," and noticed the rather, uh...politically incorrect portrayal of an "Indian Medicine Man," to quote the episode description. Now, granted, that episode was produced way back in 1991, but still, it got me thinking. What do we think is the most politically incorrect episode of Odyssey ever?

Yeah, that one is definitely super cringy now. I think it's not quite as bad as it could have been because it was somebody pretending to be a Native American and the you could claim that the portrayal was meant to be a moderately bad guy imitatating somebody very poorly, but still...it's not good.

It's been awhile, but I remember disliking "The One About Trust, Parts 1-2". Connie was worried about a wage gap between herself and Eugene and the resolution was weird. I'd need to relisten to it to be able to judge it fully. EDIT: The wage gap has been debunked so many times, but perhaps not back when the episode was written so I don't think we needed an episode addressing it. I dunno. I'm going to have to re-listen to it to be fair.

Monica Stone wrote:It's been awhile, but I remember disliking "The One About Trust, Parts 1-2". Connie was worried about a wage gap between herself and Eugene and the resolution was weird. I'd need to relisten to it to be able to judge it fully.

A bit weird, yes, but plenty of lessons against political correctness, which can be summarized as every situation is different, the world is complicated, and there is usually more to situations than first appears.

Catspaw wrote:Yeah, that one is definitely super cringy now. I think it's not quite as bad as it could have been because it was somebody pretending to be a Native American and the you could claim that the portrayal was meant to be a moderately bad guy imitatating somebody very poorly, but still...it's not good.

That's how I took it, the guy was an impressionist for children. It would've been a little odd if it hadn't been overdone. Whit even points that out when setting his wards straight, telling them that Indians don't use words like that.


And to add my own, Castles and Cauldrons. I like the episodes thus far mentioned, but C&C doesn't sit right with me now. I haven't played D&D or Pathfinder, yet, but I've watched it. Focus' portrayal was, to put if mildly, a bit off.

Monica Stone wrote:It's been awhile, but I remember disliking "The One About Trust, Parts 1-2". Connie was worried about a wage gap between herself and Eugene and the resolution was weird. I'd need to relisten to it to be able to judge it fully.

It's been a long time since I listened to these episodes, but I'm with you on this. I recall the explanation being that they were both technically allocated the same amount of money; Eugene just received his directly while Whit put Connie's "bonus" into the college fund. Frankly, considering that she had the evidence of the paychecks, it's not unreasonable to think that something weird was going on. Should she have talked to Whit about the whole situation? Yes. But I think it's silly to act like she shouldn't have questioned the situation/been upset.

For myself, I put forth "Modesty is the Best Policy" as one that didn't age super well. I guess the episode had good intentions, but the whole thing feels kind of icky. Unfortunately, this episode combined Donna's clothing choices with her choice to sneak around and deceive her parents, so it's not really the most honest examination of the whole topic. We automatically equate Donna's desire to dress more like her peers with insubordination and deception. I'm also frustrated that Donna talked to Mary about her dress and Mary approved, and George immediately shuts them down and leaves pretty much no room for discussion. And the end where George and Jack are like, "Oh, I like her dress a lot... but for all the wrong reasons!" It's just... eughhhh.

Also "Columbus: The Grand Voyage" has some, um, questionable lines. I didn't listen to the whole thing, but Lawrence says something like, "I don't know why my teacher said some people don't like Columbus... I thought he was cool!" And Whit is just like, "Well, he has been the center of controversy, but his voyage was super amazing, wasn't it?" Obviously the main problems about Columbus aren't really appropriate for Odyssey's younger audience, but maybe just leave the topic alone if you can't address the issues.

Jonathan wrote:

Catspaw wrote:Yeah, that one is definitely super cringy now. I think it's not quite as bad as it could have been because it was somebody pretending to be a Native American and the you could claim that the portrayal was meant to be a moderately bad guy imitatating somebody very poorly, but still...it's not good.

That's how I took it, the guy was an impressionist for children. It would've been a little odd if it hadn't been overdone. Whit even points that out when setting his wards straight, telling them that Indians don't use words like that.

It is much better with Whit pointing out the errors, but as a sound clip, it's still not great. Even the word "Indian" comes across very poorly to me, though I know it was more acceptable at the time the episode was made, and still more acceptable in the US than in Canada. (First Nations peoples or Aboriginal peoples are the most typically used terms.) Just today I was watching an episode of "Remington Steele" from 1985 and there was a kid in war paint and a headdress, with one of the nice main characters (played by Doris Roberts) going on about wampum and firewater in a way that had me cringing and thinking about this thread. I think all older shows have those moments that would be done much differently today.

Petrichor wrote: For myself, I put forth "Modesty is the Best Policy" as one that didn't age super well. I guess the episode had good intentions, but the whole thing feels kind of icky. Unfortunately, this episode combined Donna's clothing choices with her choice to sneak around and deceive her parents, so it's not really the most honest examination of the whole topic. We automatically equate Donna's desire to dress more like her peers with insubordination and deception. I'm also frustrated that Donna talked to Mary about her dress and Mary approved, and George immediately shuts them down and leaves pretty much no room for discussion. And the end where George and Jack are like, "Oh, I like her dress a lot... but for all the wrong reasons!" It's just... eughhhh.

Also "Columbus: The Grand Voyage" has some, um, questionable lines. I didn't listen to the whole thing, but Lawrence says something like, "I don't know why my teacher said some people don't like Columbus... I thought he was cool!" And Whit is just like, "Well, he has been the center of controversy, but his voyage was super amazing, wasn't it?" Obviously the main problems about Columbus aren't really appropriate for Odyssey's younger audience, but maybe just leave the topic alone if you can't address the issues.

The first time I saw "Clueless" and saw what the main character thought passed for a dress, I figured this must be exactly the outfit referred to in the episode. Not what I would want my daughter wearing in public either (if I had one). It's possibly it could have been done better, but the message about dressing modestly is important.

I actually like how they briefly address controversy in the Columbus episode. It allows them to tell an interesting story while acknowledging that history is complex. Older listeners are made aware that AIO writers know that not everybody feels the same way about the story, while younger listeners can still enjoy at their level. They do something similar in the Saint Patrick episode, where Whit says something about how there are two versions of the story and then tells the one that's actually appropriate for children (the other version isn't!) That lets older listeners know that there is another version if they want to investigate but still keeps the story that is told at a child-appropriate level.

Petrichor wrote: For myself, I put forth "Modesty is the Best Policy" as one that didn't age super well. I guess the episode had good intentions, but the whole thing feels kind of icky. Unfortunately, this episode combined Donna's clothing choices with her choice to sneak around and deceive her parents, so it's not really the most honest examination of the whole topic. We automatically equate Donna's desire to dress more like her peers with insubordination and deception. I'm also frustrated that Donna talked to Mary about her dress and Mary approved, and George immediately shuts them down and leaves pretty much no room for discussion. And the end where George and Jack are like, "Oh, I like her dress a lot... but for all the wrong reasons!" It's just... eughhhh.

I agree it had good intentions but the execution and the way modesty was presented was disturbing. Donna was pretty much told, "Dress decently or guys will think impure thoughts about you." Modesty is much more than that!
Never were the actions and thoughts of the guys brought into question. Women won't always dress modestly, so on the flip side, guys should learn not to think sinfully about them.

Petrichor wrote: It's been a long time since I listened to these episodes, but I'm with you on this. I recall the explanation being that they were both technically allocated the same amount of money; Eugene just received his directly while Whit put Connie's "bonus" into the college fund. Frankly, considering that she had the evidence of the paychecks, it's not unreasonable to think that something weird was going on. Should she have talked to Whit about the whole situation? Yes. But I think it's silly to act like she shouldn't have questioned the situation/been upset.

The episode seemed like it wanted to deal with the hot topic of wage gaps and sexism but it did poorly.

Catspaw wrote:It is much better with Whit pointing out the errors, but as a sound clip, it's still not great.

Ha. Ok, heard out of context you've got a point on that one

Catspaw wrote:Even the word "Indian" comes across very poorly to me, though I know it was more acceptable at the time the episode was made, and still more acceptable in the US than in Canada. (First Nations peoples or Aboriginal peoples are the most typically used terms.)

I think it is more acceptable here; I have Indian cousins through marriage that don't care one way or the other. And when the word Indian is passed, Native American is used instead; I've barely even heard of the other two terms (and as you know, I'm not far from the border).


Here's another one; What Are We Going To Do About Halloween? The solution was creative per Whit's style, but as I've gotten older the issue has seemed a much smaller deal to me (fun fact, this was the first episode I ever heard)

Catspaw wrote: The first time I saw "Clueless" and saw what the main character thought passed for a dress, I figured this must be exactly the outfit referred to in the episode. Not what I would want my daughter wearing in public either (if I had one). It's possibly it could have been done better, but the message about dressing modestly is important.

Hmm... I guess that's kind of what I mean by the show not aging well, since that's not really what comes to mind when I listen to it. To me, it doesn't seem like it could have been as crazy as Cher's outfit in Clueless since Mary had already approved of the dress. I guess we'll never really know what the writers had in mind. =/ I still think that overall, while modesty is an important topic, this episode isn't a great way to discuss the topic, since it pretty much conflates different standards of modesty with lying to your parents and stealing boyfriends.

Catspaw wrote: I actually like how they briefly address controversy in the Columbus episode. It allows them to tell an interesting story while acknowledging that history is complex. Older listeners are made aware that AIO writers know that not everybody feels the same way about the story, while younger listeners can still enjoy at their level. They do something similar in the Saint Patrick episode, where Whit says something about how there are two versions of the story and then tells the one that's actually appropriate for children (the other version isn't!) That lets older listeners know that there is another version if they want to investigate but still keeps the story that is told at a child-appropriate level.

I don't want to discuss this too in-depth, since I readily admit to not listening to the whole thing for a very long time. However, I will say that it kind of concerns me that they casually dismiss all the horrible things Columbus did as "controversy," then immediately segue into Chris's wrap-up segment on how Columbus's voyage allowed the gospel to be spread. I am by no means an expert on the topic at all, so I'll try to keep myself out of trouble here and speak from personal experience. I feel like when you present super complex historical characters like Columbus as generally good/nice/moral to kids, that's the first impression they'll carry forever. My childhood view of Columbus was overwhelmingly positive based on media like AIO that I consumed, and it took a lot of more nuanced resources to make me see the other side of the story. I just feel like that could have been done better here.

I recently listened to "Lincoln" and after how many times of hearing it, I realized for the first time that Hal Smith (and maybe also Jim Custer? Just a guess without going to AIOwiki) is playing a runaway slave... It's pretty cringy with him trying to use "black-speak".

Dallas R. wrote:I recently listened to "Lincoln" and after how many times of hearing it, I realized for the first time that Hal Smith (and maybe also Jim Custer? Just a guess without going to AIOwiki) is playing a runaway slave... It's pretty cringy with him trying to use "black-speak".

I noticed this as well.. and it was pretty cringe.

#snubsformayor