Can unsaved people get into Heaven?

[Caswin]

Just so I'm clear before moving on, you believe that salvation is earned through good deeds?

I think you have me confused with Kait. I haven't said anything on the subject.

However, it sounds like he would still consider "All that matters is that you rejected it, it doesn't matter if you didn't know any better; now you will be punished for eternity" to be wrong.

[John Chrysostom]

And if that is the only way God works and my idea of him is completely false, then so be it. Because I have no desire to worship a God with such a twisted sense of 'justice'.

This is actually an interesting point, because what you're saying with the all religions seek God example is that someone can have a false view of God and still be seeking Him and find Him and get to Heaven. Unless you believe that God has no objective characteristics and is whatever we want Him to be then there is one religion that has the correct view of God, the different religions may have parts right but they are still wrong on some counts. If that's the case then how can someone find God if they don't know who they're looking for? If I wanted you to find someone and I gave you the wrong description would you be able to find them? And could you truly worship a God who you didn't know? To use an extreme example could I stand next to you and pray to a God who I believe sends hurricanes to kill the gays while you pray to a God you believe loves people? Would we really be worshiping the same God?

Now yes I agree the standard Western view of hell as a place of eternal separation from God and eternal torture is unjust. I think the after life will be the eternal experiencing of God's love but that love will affect us in different ways.

[church]

I was talking to kait...

Umm, no, I would actually find it to be extremely generous. It's more like, "I know you have broken my laws. I know you have been selfish. I know you have sinned. I know you have failed and will never be able redeem yourself. So I've paid the price for you. All you have to do is accept the gift of it and everlasting joy is yours."

[Caswin]

"So I've paid the price for you. All you have to do is accept the gift of it and everlasting joy is yours."

And if someone actually, undeniably and clearly saw God appear to them and say that, I'm sure that they'd be more than happy to accept. The problem is that, again, many don't hear that offer at all, or they hear many similar offers, have probably been raised to believe in something else as the highest truth, and see an invention of man rather than a gift from God.

[church]

And if someone actually, undeniably and clearly saw God appear to them and say that, I'm sure that they'd be more than happy to accept. The problem is that, again, many don't hear that offer at all, or they hear many similar offers, have probably been raised to believe in something else as the highest truth, and see an invention of man rather than a gift from God.

But that's doesn't say whether the view is accurate or not. It says more to what Christians should be striving to overcome. Christians did recieve the command of go and teach the world.



And what else is there? Earning salvation - how would we be judged? I know if my heart were weighed against a feather, my heart would be heavier.

I know several people who have done terrible things. What do we tell them? "I'm sorry, you're just too evil for God. There's no way for you into heaven. You're without hope." Me thinks not. That would be a terrible world to live in. I'm glad we have the opportunity to have all our sins erased and all we have to do is accept it.

[Caswin]

But that's doesn't say whether the view is accurate or not. It says more to what Christians should be striving to overcome. Christians did recieve the command of go and teach the world.

The problem with that is that Christians are as human as anybody else. It's impossible to reach everybody, and even if it weren't, it's impossible to reach those who are already dead. I think that it would be fair to say that they can't accept Jesus because they've ever never heard of him or don't believe in him.

And then it follows that they die, they're damned, and they can't accept it then, either.

I know several people who have done terrible things. What do we tell them? "I'm sorry, you're just too evil for God. There's no way for you into heaven. You're without hope."

You're the first in this thread to suggest it. You might metaphorically say the same thing to someone who was born in some obscure part of the world.

[John Chrysostom]

Is the solution then to say that as long as you live a good life you go to heaven? And is heaven simply a reward for living a good life?

[Caswin]

Is the solution then to say that as long as you live a good life you go to heaven? And is heaven simply a reward for living a good life?

Offhand, one would make more sense than the other from where I'm sitting, but I'm not the one who suggested it. (I do object to the use of words like "accept" and "rejection" as if it were common to see Christianity as the truth and then reject it out of pride or something.) I jumped into this in the context of someone else's debate; I don't know what Kait would say.

[John Chrysostom]

I agree it is not common to see Christianity as the truth and then reject it out of pride. But I also think viewing heaven as simply a reward for living a good life simplifies a complex issue so much that it loses all meaning, what is a good life after all? Is there an objective standard for right and wrong?

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

Or viewing heaven as a reward for saying/believing the right thing. Like the first pillar of Islam.

[John Chrysostom]

Islam and some Christian denominations, yeah that isn't right either.

[Pirate Oriana]

But that's doesn't say whether the view is accurate or not. It says more to what Christians should be striving to overcome. Christians did recieve the command of go and teach the world.

The problem with that is that Christians are as human as anybody else. It's impossible to reach everybody, and even if it weren't, it's impossible to reach those who are already dead. I think that it would be fair to say that they can't accept Jesus because they've ever never heard of him or don't believe in him.

And then it follows that they die, they're damned, and they can't accept it then, either.

I know several people who have done terrible things. What do we tell them? "I'm sorry, you're just too evil for God. There's no way for you into heaven. You're without hope."

You're the first in this thread to suggest it. You might metaphorically say the same thing to someone who was born in some obscure part of the world.

A lot, maybe even most, of the people in the world know the gospel message, and they have lots of ways of finding out more about Jesus if they have a desire. These people do not have a lack of information to work with. My definition of "saved," is based on the assumption that this is the kind of person we're talking about.

However, I agree that there are those who have never had the chance to hear the message of salvation.

For those people, I do believe the rules are a little different.

Luke 12:47-48
"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
(from New International Version)

For those people that have never been taught anything about the Bible in their whole lives, will be given grace some grace because of their ignorance. God know that they have not been told about the Law, the resurrection of Jesus, or any of the Bible's teachings, therefore I don't believe He will require the same specific desplay of faith from these people that He would require of someone who's heard the message of salvation all their life.

However, although these people might not have all the specifics, I don't think they are just off the hook. I'm sure that God has the ability to make Himself known in some way to those who have not been reach by missionaries. In fact, I believe that many of these methods of revelation are the same for all men.

Rom 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
KJV

Eccl 3:15
1 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end
KJV

Rom 2:13-16
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
KJV

The same goes for those who were already dead. A lot of them (including those in the Bible,) didn't even have the Old Testement, let alone a knowledge of Jesus. However, it always was, and always will be, faith in God that saves man.

Gen 15:6

6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
(from New International Version)

(This belief was in respons to God's promise that God would make the VERY old Abraham, then Abram, the father of many nations.) Abraham didn't know about Jesus dying on the cross, but he did know God and he put all of his confidence in the Lord. Because of that, God counted him as righteous (and, in my opinion, that means that Abraham would count as "saved." )

Also, the Bible does make a reference to Jesus preaching specifically to the people who died in Noah's day in 1 Peter 3:19-20 I haven't actually studied this out, so don't really have a take on just what this verse means or entails, but I thought I would throw it out ther

[Kait]

Just so I'm clear before moving on, you believe that salvation is earned through good deeds?

Not necessarily? Frankly, I'm not even sure what "salvation" means. I don't believe in Hell, so I don't really believe there is anything to be saved from. Potentially an eternal separation from God, but that could take on many forms. It could mean you just end up dying and knowing nothing more and you just miss out on being with God for eternity.

But I guess I do believe that if the part of you that is made in God's image--the spirit of Good that dwells within all of us-- wins out more often over the spirit of fallen humanity, then you will have gone a long way to having a place with God in eternity.

If that's the case then how can someone find God if they don't know who they're looking for? If I wanted you to find someone and I gave you the wrong description would you be able to find them?

I think every person has the capacity to know what to look for. We are created in God's image, so we have everything we need inside of ourselves (this sounds really sketchy, but I promise I don't mean this in an "We are all gods" kind of way) I believe every person is born with a pure and good soul, crafted in the image of God. But because we are humans living in a human world, we also have to deal with that part of ourselves that is fallen.

I guess I'm just saying that we cannot possibly know if any religion has it all right. It is just not possible. And I think it is ridiculous for any one religion to have a monopoly on God...I'm not willing to put him in a box like that. I think God has created all of us with the capacity, desire and ABILITY to seek (and find) him in our own way. But because we are human, we might not get it entirely right. And that's okay, because getting it right isn't the point. The point is in the journey, the desire, and the willingness to seek God's perfection for ourselves. To let our good side of our spirits win out over the human side.

And could you truly worship a God who you didn't know?

An intriguing point. But again. I don't think that we as humans can ever entirely know God in his fullness. We can only hope that the image we have of him is the correct one, based entirely upon our experiences and intuition. Like I said above, the point is not to get God "right" but to seek him in the first place.

To use an extreme example could I stand next to you and pray to a God who I believe sends hurricanes to kill the gays while you pray to a God you believe loves people? Would we really be worshiping the same God?

The short answer is: Yes. You would.

I just don't believe in multiple Gods. I believe in one God and one God only. And it is NOT at all my place to judge whether or not you (general you) truly have a relationship with God. As such, I give you the benefit of the doubt and say that yes, you are worshiping the same God as I am...because there is only one. Your idea of God might be different, and I might vehemently disagree with it. But I am not going to stand there and pretend I know everything about God and pretend that I have the capacity to judge whether or not your relationship is genuine, based only on the fact that you have a different idea of him than I do. That is not my place.

...the after life will be the eternal experiencing of God's love but that love will affect us in different ways.

That's an interesting viewpoint. Is this a "universalist" type of viewpoint in that you believe everyone will be eventually saved? Or is it more of a viewpoint where the love of God will be 'torturous' to those who have lived evil lives? Or none of the above?

[John Chrysostom]

I guess I'm just saying that we cannot possibly know if any religion has it all right. It is just not possible. And I think it is ridiculous for any one religion to have a monopoly on God.

Haven't you then cornered the market on deciding who is right and wrong? I don't think any one religion has a monopoly on God, I think there are seeds of truth in all but I would argue that Christianity has it the most right. I guess our main crux of disagreement would be the Incarnation and if one doesn't believe in that then I can see where you're coming from.

An intriguing point. But again. I don't think that we as humans can ever entirely know God in his fullness. We can only hope that the image we have of him is the correct one, based entirely upon our experiences and intuition. Like I said above, the point is not to get God "right" but to seek him in the first place.

I agree that no human can every entirely know God in His fullness, but I think we do think there is a lot we can know. And yes the end goal is not to get God right but searching for Him does require knowing who He is and if it's based entirely upon our experiences and intuition and not something objective then I think we'll get lost on that search.

The short answer is: Yes. You would.

I just don't believe in multiple Gods. I believe in one God and one God only.

Fair enough, that's a very consistent view.

That's an interesting viewpoint. Is this a "universalist" type of viewpoint in that you believe everyone will be eventually saved? Or is it more of a viewpoint where the love of God will be 'torturous' to those who have lived evil lives? Or none of the above?

Mostly the last one with a hope of the first one.

[Pirate Oriana]

To use an extreme example could I stand next to you and pray to a God who I believe sends hurricanes to kill the gays while you pray to a God you believe loves people? Would we really be worshiping the same God?

The short answer is: Yes. You would.

I just don't believe in multiple Gods. I believe in one God and one God only. And it is NOT at all my place to judge whether or not you (general you) truly have a relationship with God. As such, I give you the benefit of the doubt and say that yes, you are worshiping the same God as I am...because there is only one. Your idea of God might be different, and I might vehemently disagree with it. But I am not going to stand there and pretend I know everything about God and pretend that I have the capacity to judge whether or not your relationship is genuine, based only on the fact that you have a different idea of him than I do. That is not my place.

You may have heard about the Westboro Baptist "church" that's been going around protesting at soldiers funerals. Those people believe that homosexuals are the scum of the earth, that all America's problems are caused by allowing them to exist in our country, and everyone who does not work to stamp out their existence is going to hell. They say that God hates homosexuals, while I believe that God loves them immensely and wants more than anything to claim them as his own. Our views of God are in conflict. The two views cannot both be right, so one, or both, of us must be wrong.
If you believe in a single true God, then his nature must include certain characteristics while excluding others. At some point we have to say, I'm going to believe this about God and I'm not going to believe that.

[Dasi]

Is the solution then to say that as long as you live a good life you go to heaven? And is heaven simply a reward for living a good life?

you don't go to Heaven for living a good life you go to Heaven for accepting Jesus is God and that Jesus died for your sins, and obeying is laws and living your life for Him. if you just do good works but don't belive in Jesus and honer him than you aren't going to go to Heaven.

[jelly]

Dasi, I recommend you spend a little more time reading other people's opinions before eagerly posting your own. The topic of discussion here is a little more complicated than that.

This article is relevant, by the way.

[Dasi]

fine I won't say anything! but what I saw it that some people thought that was the way that you got into Heaven. and i don't have all day to look at all the posts.

[jelly]

As a general rule of thumb, if you're not interested in listening to what other people have to say, you have no right to expect others to listen to what you have to say.

Life Pro Tip: Stop shouting, start listening, and always be prepared to admit you might be wrong.

[John Chrysostom]

Darsi: I agree with Jelly, listen before you shout.

Jelly: I think that article focuses too much on the here and now. We as Christians are told to count this life as fleeting and that the age to come is what matters. I think if anything, the purpose of this life is to prepare ourselves for the other side of that door by giving up everything in this world. The author says "I think keeping the afterlife a complete mystery is God’s way of telling us to pay maximum attention to the life we have on this side of the door. That the ever-fluid now of our lives is where the action is." I couldn't disagree more, now we see in mirror darkly, but soon we shall see face to face.