Human logic...

[snubs]

I decided to make a whole new topic on this, because I have no idea where it could lead.


I was just thinking about this recently, that us humans are so....stupid. I mean, take atheists for instances, how do they know there is no God? And like in the "Do Sinners Really Go to heck" topic. People keep stating like they know what heck is like. Have you ever been there? I don't think so. So how can you know? Our intelligence is so, so, so SMALL we only know a fraction of what this world is (not to mention what Heaven and heck are like). Studies show that we don't even use most of our brain on a daily basis! nor do we even know how to access it.

Which leads me to another thing, we really shouldn't concern ourselves with how God does things. Because if God is ALL knowing, creator of the universe, and creator of MAN (you and me), I don't think it's our place (His creation) to question His dealings. And plus, we don't even KNOW His logic to how he works with everything. So, I don't know if babies go to Heaven (I like to believe they do) but if they don't, I'm sure God has His reasons. Because again, our mind is soooo small I can't even begin to tell you. I mean, you gotta remember, we don't see everything God sees.


Okay, now you all can turn this around on me.

[John Chrysostom]

I agree completely with what you said. I think there's a desire to know everything and have every action in the universe logically explained and understood. But like you said there's no way we'll ever actually be able to comprehend that but like Job found out its not our place to know anyway.

[Sherlock]

I agree that there is no way that we can ever know everything, but at the same time, I don't think that we should allow this fact to discourage us from trying to develop our minds and our reasoning abilities to try and learn as much about the observable universe as possible. The ancient studies of philosophy were formed prior to most modern scientific advancements, and philosophers and logicians were able to make some very impressive discoveries about the way our universe works and the rules that govern it. After all, I believe God created us with the faculties of reason on purpose, something that we alone in the universe possess out of all the creatures, and I believe that we can and should use that gift.

That said, I don't think we should allow our reason to get us into a Babel situation, leading us to become overly arrogant about human advancement.

[Kait]

^ What Sherlock said.


We may never be able to fully understand God or the workings of the universe, but that should never stop us from trying.

[snubs]

Oh, I don't think we should stop searching, observing and learning, I'm just sick of people being so 'set in stone' and saying "I know, I know, I know" When they really may not.

[Christian A.]

I think I can assume that this topic was mainly directed at me, and I apologize if that's really how I sound. I'm not perfect; my mind is not perfectly logical. So I don't want to give the impression that any of what I get is from my own opinions or my own reasoning. I weigh all that I exert against the teaching of the Bible and its interpretation by commentators and church leaders that I respect. If I ever made it seem like this is just what I believe and you must believe it just because I say it's right, I'm sorry.

No, I don't know exactly what heck is like. But God tells us a lot about what heck is like. And He also tells us what salvation is like. And He tells us what He is like. So when we logically weave those things together, we can learn much about how God must treat the wicked and what their punishment will be like. But again, if anyone sees contradictions between what I say and what Scripture says, please let me know.

[snubs]

I wasn't directing it at you specifically, because there are a lot of people around here that do that. Especially in the CCDS.

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

I was just thinking about this recently, that us humans are so....stupid. I mean, take atheists for instances, how do they know there is no God?

We don't "know" there is no God. We reject the assertion. That is we listen to the claim and say no I don't believe you. Most atheists do the same thing for other supernatural claims like fairies or ghosts or psychics, though that is not required since atheist is only a lack of belief in a god. There is no belief system and generally not a 100% no. Most atheists would also be open to any evidence offered in support of the claim that there is a God, especially scientific studies and observation.

Also, I would like to point out that you yourself are an atheist. That is correct. Presumably you don't believe in Vishnu, Shiva, Ganesha, the Muslim and Jewish version of your God, Zeus, Ra, or hundreds of other gods that people have believed in throughout the millennia. How do you know that they're stories and holy books aren't true and that god is the one true god? Most of us are atheists about all the gods who ever existed, some of us just go one god further.

[ique]

I get what you're saying, Snubs. So many people seem so certain about things. The older I get, the more uncertain I become about everything. o_O
Isn't it kind of ironic that the more you know, the less you know? Sigh.

[snubs]

Also, I would like to point out that you yourself are an atheist. That is correct. Presumably you don't believe in Vishnu, Shiva, Ganesha, the Muslim and Jewish version of your God, Zeus, Ra, or hundreds of other gods that people have believed in throughout the millennia. How do you know that they're stories and holy books aren't true and that god is the one true god? Most of us are atheists about all the gods who ever existed, some of us just go one god further.

You can say that if you like, and I guess you could call me an atheist in that respect. However, I know what I believe is true for various reasons (I won't get into the intricacies). One of them is, Christianity (true Christianity) is the only religion where God is reaching down to man. All other religions are man reaching to God. It's is also good to note that Christianity is the most hated religion. Now if this religion wasn't true (whether people are consciously thinking this) why do people hate it so much? You can say I am wrong on this if you want, but that's not going to change my mind.

“If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.
If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world,
but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." -John 15:18-19

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

You can say that if you like, and I guess you could call me an atheist in that respect. However, I know what I believe is true for various reasons (I won't get into the intricacies). One of them is, Christianity (true Christianity) is the only religion where God is reaching down to man. All other religions are man reaching to God.

And of course, my usual question: how would you go about proving that? And more importantly, how do you know that that is true?

It's is also good to note that Christianity is the most hated religion. Now if this religion wasn't true (whether people are consciously thinking this) why do people hate it so much? You can say I am wrong on this if you want, but that's not going to change my mind.

“If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.
If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world,
but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." -John 15:18

This is a facet of humanity that always fascinates me. People always like to be the underdog. They always like to be on the supposed losing side. This is represented in countless artistic works: movies, tv shows, video games, painting, sculpture, writing, and many others. We like to say we're on the losing side and than point to ourselves and say: "Hey! Look at me! I'm a victim here!"

But let's look at statistics shall we?

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html



About a third of the world's population is Christian. It is, by far, the world's largest religion. That's about 2.3 billion people. Islam, second, has a fifth which is about 1.4 billion. But let's say you disagree with that. Let's say you don't think all those people who say they're Christian really are. Ok, well let's estimate conservatively that half of that number are "true" Christians. That's still about 1.15 billion people in the world. That's a fairly significant figure. Do you think that they're not all on your side, that they're secretly hating you? And among the non-Christians there are many many people who don't hate people for what they believe, myself included. Most atheists and other non-religious would probably take the same stance, they don't hate people for what they believe, or for anything else for that matter.

Presumably you live in the United States:

http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html

Most people, at least 80% are Christian of some kind. Again, are you paranoid, do you think people are out to get you? People do not hate like that, generally. It's only the extremists who do so, again, generally. The world does not hate you. If anything, a third of the world is on your side and supports you. Probably more.

[snubs]

Wow, I don't even want to discuss with you, it's just a waste of my time. Plus, I am just not vary good at debating. Mostly because I am terrible with words, so people usually don't fully understand what I am trying to convey. Which in turn, makes it very easy for people to pick apart my argument (especially when it is text). It is true, there are thousands of people that say they are "Christian" and they are not....that's why I don't really like saying I'm a Christian (because there is so many different so called "Christians") And I'm sorry, but we are the most hated religion. And I'm not just saying that to throw a little pity party. Do you think I go shouting that around? Uh, no.

[John Chrysostom]

I would say Christians are the most hated people in some countries, usually when they are in the minority, but where Christians are in the majority they usually do not suffer persecution. Here in America for example Christians get worked up over the fact that the greeter at Wal-Mart won't say Merry Christmas and call that hate and persecution; it's not. Iraq where the majority of Christians have been killed or driven from the country is a place where Christians are persecuted, let's not make martyrs of ourselves when there are real ones out there.

As far as the last part if this was the debate area I would delete that, ad hominem attacks are not appropriate.

[snubs]

I would say Christians are the most hated people in some countries, usually when they are in the minority, but where Christians are in the majority they usually do not suffer persecution. Here in America for example Christians get worked up over the fact that the greeter at Wal-Mart won't say Merry Christmas and call that hate and persecution; it's not. Iraq where the majority of Christians have been killed or driven from the country is a place where Christians are persecuted, let's not make martyrs of ourselves when there are real ones out there.

I agree with this, yes.

Sorry about my post, but I just had a very intense conversation (prior to my post) about things similar, and I got pretty exciting (I guess you could say).

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

As far as the last part if this was the debate area I would delete that, ad hominem attacks are not appropriate.

If you're talking about me (and I assume you are) please point out the parts that you consider ad hominem, by all means. I'd like to know so I can improve my debating/discussion. I don't like to make ad hominem attacks on people. It's just rude and does nothing to support a position.

Wow, I don't even want to discuss with you, it's just a waste of my time. And it is true, there are thousands of people that say they are "Christian" and they are not....that's why I don't really like saying I'm a Christian (because there is so many different so called "Christians") And I'm sorry but we are the most hated religion. And I'm not just saying that to throw a little pity party. Do you think I go shouting that around? Uh, no.

So you don't want to discuss with me? I was basically just bringing statistics into it, you don't want me to bring in verifiable facts? You think facts are a waste of time? You don't want to discuss why people like to be on the losing side? I find it a very fascinating topic.

So you just want to say that you're in the most hated religion for... some reason, and than say it over and over again without discussion or looking at the facts. This is basically religious ideas in a nutshell. You force yourself to keep them without questioning them and that's what I want to discourage. I want to encourage questioning and reasoning.

[snubs]

She was talking about me more than likely.

And I do question and I do look at the facts. I would state them so as to show you, but I don't want to because again, I am not good with words (especially when it comes to text). Therefore, you will probably misunderstand what I am really trying to convey. Which has nothing to do with you. It's just, if you don't fully know what I mean then it makes me frustrated, and as a result I end up saying things I soon regret.

[Josef1004]

It is not so much that Christianity is hated, as it is that Christ is hated. The world,--jew and gentile--have said: "We will not have this man to reign over us." Jesus Christ is the rightful king, and those who are truly loyal to him have been guaranteed by Him that they will indeed suffer persecution--seeing he himself was rejected and that the servant is not greater than his Lord. But as a religion, a pluralistic world really has nothing against Christianity. In fact, I'm convinced that the world church that is going to be established in the last times will be thought of by many as Christianity. But it will be a Christianity without Christ.

In response to the topic title:
To question and to logic is a perfectly acceptable thing, but the fact is that our logic is flawed just like our emotions are. Our brains are just as fallen as our hearts. That's why deep down inside, we don't have the courage to approach God. We don't have a way home. That's why God had to reveal himself to us.

God revealed himself in the person of Jesus Christ. The Bible teaches that God, who has been speaking all along through prophets, has now spoken by His Son. (read Hebrews 1:1)

The Bible also teaches that those who have gained access by faith into the grace of God, actually have a personal confirmation, and that is the Spirit of God within them. (read Romans 5:5)