Does Satan know we exist?

[Whitty Whit]

according to Job Satan is a literal figure and according to several examples in the Gospels there are literal demonic forces that are active in our lives.

Context, context, context. The Book of Job is a poetic parable in form and application, hardly to be taken literally. Are we to expect that somehow the author went up to heaven and witnessed casual spiritual discussion with his own eyes? Hardly. The first several chapters of Job set up the scene for the theological problem of sin to be addressed in the form of a narrative. Nobody was there with a tape recorder to capture the audible discussion between God and Job, because it never happened like that. I won't insist that the character of Job was entirely fictional, but surely the premise of the overall narrative hardly intends historical accuracy for itself. Jesus, of course, also spoke in parables. Instances of demonic possession could also be taken in ways of representation, if you so desired. That's not really my point, though. My point is that we can't take the few examples we see in the Gospels and invent an entirely technical construct of the spiritual realm that we somehow have the ability to understand and have say into. There's far, far more than we'll ever have the ability to comprehend as long as we're on earth, and any tastes we have to build off of are almost solely instances of subjective experience.

Wait. So you don't think Job existed?

Okay I honestly haven't read any of this thread. I just saw the title and thought I would say what I have heard.

Small side note: This always irks me. >_> Whether intentional or not, it appears as though you're suggesting that you don't care what anyone else has to say and you only care about getting your word in. At the very least, it portrays incompetence in regards to engaging in fair debate.

Well, considering this is in the Church and not CCDS... we really aren't debating, now are we? *Note: This is supposed to allude to previous discussions on how we aren't supposed to debate in the Church. The above comment is designed to instill humorous thoughts into the reader.*

[Termite]

Are we to expect that somehow the author went up to heaven and witnessed casual spiritual discussion with his own eyes?

*sidenote* That's why it's called the 'inspired Word of God', meaning that everything was revealed to be written down.

Anyway, continue.

[jelly]

according to Job Satan is a literal figure and according to several examples in the Gospels there are literal demonic forces that are active in our lives.

Context, context, context. The Book of Job is a poetic parable in form and application, hardly to be taken literally. Are we to expect that somehow the author went up to heaven and witnessed casual spiritual discussion with his own eyes? Hardly. The first several chapters of Job set up the scene for the theological problem of sin to be addressed in the form of a narrative. Nobody was there with a tape recorder to capture the audible discussion between God and Job, because it never happened like that. I won't insist that the character of Job was entirely fictional, but surely the premise of the overall narrative hardly intends historical accuracy for itself. Jesus, of course, also spoke in parables. Instances of demonic possession could also be taken in ways of representation, if you so desired. That's not really my point, though. My point is that we can't take the few examples we see in the Gospels and invent an entirely technical construct of the spiritual realm that we somehow have the ability to understand and have say into. There's far, far more than we'll ever have the ability to comprehend as long as we're on earth, and any tastes we have to build off of are almost solely instances of subjective experience.

Wait. So you don't think Job existed?

Did you read my post?

Well, considering this is in the Church and not CCDS... we really aren't debating, now are we?

lawl. I clicked on the thread and saw a debate in progress, so I just assumed we were in CCDS.

Are we to expect that somehow the author went up to heaven and witnessed casual spiritual discussion with his own eyes?

*sidenote* That's why it's called the 'inspired Word of God', meaning that everything was revealed to be written down.

This is hardly true. Do you know what that even means? Define it for me.

[John Chrysostom]

But the concept of "getting a view of the spiritual realm from Scripture" is such an insanely broad idea that it could mean almost anything. This is where many, many hours of theological thought come into play.

Oh I agree which is why I look to others who have had personal experience with demonic forces and who went through those hours of theological thought and came out believing in literal demonic forces. I believe there is a good deal of belief in the Early Church and in the Holy Fathers about demonic forces. I've also been reading the writings of a wide selection of monastics in various time periods that talk a great deal about their personal warfare against the demonic forces.

My point is that we can't take the few examples we see in the Gospels and invent an entirely technical construct of the spiritual realm that we somehow have the ability to understand and have say into. There's far, far more than we'll ever have the ability to comprehend as long as we're on earth, and any tastes we have to build off of are almost solely instances of subjective experience.

Again I totally agree, I didn't mean to imply that I was building a technical viewpoint of the spiritual realm, I was simply saying that I do believe we can acknowledge the literal existence of demonic forces and look at the experiences of Holy Fathers much wiser than ourselves.

However to deny the existence of demonic forces that we must combat every day is to hand them a victory.

[jelly]

But the concept of "getting a view of the spiritual realm from Scripture" is such an insanely broad idea that it could mean almost anything. This is where many, many hours of theological thought come into play.

Oh I agree which is why I look to others who have had personal experience with demonic forces and who went through those hours of theological thought and came out believing in literal demonic forces. I believe there is a good deal of belief in the Early Church and in the Holy Fathers about demonic forces. I've also been reading the writings of a wide selection of monastics in various time periods that talk a great deal about their personal warfare against the demonic forces.

Oh yeah... I'm not choosing to be blind, I'm fully aware of the many personal testimonies of demonic influence and possession. My grandfather is actually a life-long Christian counsellor who has 'cast out demons' on a regular basis. I'm simply more inclined to believe in an overarching 'Evil Spirit' then multiple entities of little monsters who carry evil around with them. I mean, we have people who legitimately claim to have had demons reveal themselves to them, but their description of a demon doesn't match the description of someone who's also seen demons. It's subjective experience; our individual tastes of the spiritual realm.

[John Chrysostom]

Hmm, I guess I'm not able to understand what you mean when you say overarching "evil spirit"

Also in my recent readings I haven't seen a contradiction in the overall descriptions; that there are specific entities that work against us. What contradictions have you run into during your readings?

[Whitty Whit]

Wait. So you don't think Job existed?

Did you read my post?

I did. But I couldn't distinguish what you thought about it.

[jelly]

Hmm, I guess I'm not able to understand what you mean when you say overarching "evil spirit"

Well, I know my 'force' analogy is absurd, but that's similar to how I see it. We have God, clearly, and under Him is the realm of the physical and the realm of the spiritual. God Himself is found in the spiritual, although He occasionally reveals Himself to the physical in tastes. However, the problem of evil can be reconciled be understanding an evil 'force' in the spirit realm. Both good and evil have obvious affects on the physical, and occasionally both will manifest themselves in ways we can see with our physical eyes. But these manifestations appear to different people in different ways; whether it's demonic possession or a serpent in the garden of Eden. But however Evil manifests itself, Evil isn't categorized into specific entities. Satan is better referred to as 'The satan'; an overarching evil spiritual force that will one day be defeated when Christ returns and sets up His Kingdom.

This is mostly my opinion; it's how I reconcile the concept of the spirit realm.

Also in my recent readings I haven't seen a contradiction in the overall descriptions; that there are specific entities that work against us. What contradictions have you run into during your readings?

Nothing I can link to at the moment, since I'm referring to eyewitness and overheard testimonies I've witnessed in person. People describe demons as appearing like animals; some describe a humanoid form with evil eyes; other describe a more iconic view of a red monster with horns. This is clearly proof of Evil manifesting itself in different ways, and I hope that no one would would be convinced of the fact that 'demons' have distinct objective physical features.

Did you read my post?

I did. But I couldn't distinguish what you thought about it.

Essentially, no, I wouldn't assume that Job actually existed unless alternative historical proof stated so. It doesn't really matter if he did or not, though, because the narrative in Job doesn't seek to prove that he was a historical figure. It merely tells a story, just as I could begin by telling you a story about a Hobbit who lived in the Shire, and suddenly ran into some terrible misfortune when a group of dwarves appeared at his front door.

[John Chrysostom]

Hmmm, I believe in an objective reality and saying that these spiritual beings do not have objective physical features seems to me to be a slippery slope to a denial of an objective reality. Also correct me if I'm wrong but did you also say that God does not have objective physical features when He appears to us? Would that mean that while Christ was on earth He appeared to people differently?

[jelly]

The spiritual realm is the objective reality. Our minds are just simply not privy enough to comprehend it all, which is why we act on faith. By faith we believe that there is a God who created both the cosmos of the physical and the realm of the spiritual, and by faith we believe that there is both good and evil, and this is confirmed for us by occasional physical manifestations. I never directly stated that God never appears in an objective form, because of course we see that He did through Jesus, but think about it... God speaks in different ways to different people all the time. He's passionate about a personal, intimate relationship with us, and He'll appeal to our own personal passions and 'love languages' with Him. In the same way, the Satan will take advantage of us by appealing to our different fears and weaknesses, which is why Evil manifests in different ways to different people. And as far as I know, Evil has never birthed a physical counterpart to Jesus as an objective manifestation. Perhaps we'll see that in the form of an Antichrist someday.

[John Chrysostom]

You make a good point that evil has never birthed a physical counterpart to Jesus, I'm still not sure about our minds not being able to comprehend object parts of the spiritual realm but I can see where you're coming from.

As to God appealing to our own personal passions and speaking differently to people at different times I don't agree with that and would unconditionally state that Christ appeared to us objectively and will continue to appear to us in that same objective form and will continue to relate to us in the same way.

[jelly]

As to God appealing to our own personal passions and speaking differently to people at different times I don't agree with that and would unconditionally state that Christ appeared to us objectively and will continue to appear to us in that same objective form and will continue to relate to us in the same way.

This may shake some foundations, but I would go as far as to suggest that the objective reality of Jesus was mostly intended to be subjective to the Jews. At the end of his ministry on earth, it's clear that he opens up the Christian faith to all peoples, but his primary objective was to minister to God's chosen people. Even in Jesus we do not find the wholly objective manifestation that you suggest, because much of his teaching and rebuke was limited to the cultural and historical situation. Before I'm rebuked, I must clarify that I fully accept the Gospels as the closest and most relevant link we've been given to God, and I believe that Christ is the only way to eternal salvation. What I'm suggesting is that we seek the personal relationship with God as the foundation to our faith rather then simply 'understanding' the historical account of his manifestation as recorded in the Gospels. This is also essential to living the Faith the way Jesus intended us to.

I'm not quick to recommend external reading, but this book is one of the most eye-opening, life-changing book I've ever read and I highly suggest you take a look at it... it's called The Seven Longings of the Human Heart, and it's available for free; you can download it as a PDF. It clearly defines what it means to have a 'personal relationship with Jesus', and goes into detail discussing the Bridal Paradigm and the intimate way in which God longs to relate to us and make a personal connection with us. This includes connecting with us through our 'love languages', which are, of course, our personal desires and longings which we were created with, and which we can best relate to God in the way he intended. Absolutely God speaks to us subjectively, because only God is fully capable of engaging in intimate relationship with all of His children at the same time.

[John Chrysostom]

I agree that a relationship with Christ is central to our faith but also that Christ gave us ways to live out that relationship with Him during His incarnation that are still relevant to us today. I also think that using terms like manifestation and subjective messages seems to be awfully close to some form of Gnosticism both in the sense of a near denial of the physical aspects of Christ and in the secret nature of subjective information given only to the individual.

I believe that Christ gave the Apostles the Faith once and for always and that God and the Church do not nor should they change to fit the individual.

I will read the book though, I am curious as my mother has mentioned it before.

[Josef1004]

It's not so much that the church changes, but rather that the understanding that the church has of "the Faith" that God gave to the apostles (indeed once for always) does. Although the truth was revealed way back then, it takes us a while to grasp that truth and have it make sense to us. For example: The Lord Jesus told his disciples (apostles) many times that He must be given over to the gentiles, crucified and buried and risen and then come again--they had the truth--but they didn't really comprehend at the time that He was not going to set up his kingdom at that first coming. It was not until He was ascending into heaven and they were told that he would come back the same way that they realised that His coming to earth to save his people from their sins and his coming to earth to reign as their king were two separate occasions. In like manner, it often is not until certain events happen that the church has a clear understanding of a concept taught in the Bible, even though it was there the whole time. In this present time, I believe the church is developing its understanding of the prophecies regarding the end of the age. It is true that the spirit of the antichrist is in the world, as 1 John makes clear, the spirit that denies that Jesus is the Christ. Soon, this will culminate in the appearing of the antichrist as Satan's counterfeit of Christ's earthly ministry, including a false resurrection. But being a created personage, Satan does not have the ability to create anything of his own. He can only appropriate that which he seduces. That is why Satan's kingdom, as impressive as it may seem to human beings, goes only so far as God allows it. He can never base it on the true eternity; he sits on the throne of lies.

Jesus Christ, on the other hand, truly is eternal; He is God. In the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. We have the time of His visitation as written down by eyewitnesses. But there is where we also read that when He explained about himself, he "opened to them the Scripture" and expounded beginning at Moses and went through all the prophets and taught them "things concerning himself". If you seek a comprehensive view of the Lord Jesus Christ, it is vital that you see Him "in the volume of the book".

To answer this topic's question: Yes, Satan knows we exist. And the more you seek the will of God, the more Satan will take notice of you. The truth is that being in the will of God is not a peaceful and safe place. You WILL be harassed by the devil--that is a given. That's why whenever the Scripture speaks of doing the will of God, it often also goes on to discuss the need to be prepared for Satan's attacks--one of the most noteworthy examples of this is the epistle to the Ephesians' chapter 6, where the need for spiritual "armour" is explained.

[Termite]

Are we to expect that somehow the author went up to heaven and witnessed casual spiritual discussion with his own eyes?

*sidenote* That's why it's called the 'inspired Word of God', meaning that everything was revealed to be written down.

This is hardly true. Do you know what that even means? Define it for me.

*cough* Shoot me for using the wrong phrase. My point being: everything that was written in the Bible was either witnessed or revealed in the heart of man by God, like the apostles and the prophets. It would be very easy for God to reveal the heavenly happenings to be written down, is what I meant. The reason Job doesn't seem like a parable, imo, is the detail. His life, his possessions; everything is recorded. There are names and places. *shrugs* Anyway, continue.

[The Top Crusader]

lolz guys remember that time part of the force rebelled in heaven and God was like "Hey you force, you can't rebel!" and cast out the naughty 33% of the force?

So yeah, saying "LOLZ FORCE" is awesome and all but even if you consider Job a parable, other parts of scripture indicate fallen angels as specific beings, not LOLZ FORCE. I mean can you find the phrase "LOLZ FORCE"? in the Bible? No, no you can not.

People have different descriptions of demons, but I'd venture a large number of what people claim to be demons are just drug/fever/mentally ill adventures. In the cases where a demonic entity is actually present, I'd assume they'd have some degree of decision over how they appear, or how they seem to appear to the eyes of the viewer, even if the appearance is deceptive.

[ric]

Are we to expect that somehow the author went up to heaven and witnessed casual spiritual discussion with his own eyes?

*sidenote* That's why it's called the 'inspired Word of God', meaning that everything was revealed to be written down.

This is hardly true. Do you know what that even means? Define it for me.

*cough* Shoot me for using the wrong phrase. My point being: everything that was written in the Bible was either witnessed or revealed in the heart of man by God, like the apostles and the prophets. It would be very easy for God to reveal the heavenly happenings to be written down, is what I meant. The reason Job doesn't seem like a parable, imo, is the detail. His life, his possessions; everything is recorded. There are names and places. *shrugs* Anyway, continue.

Ya, but surely you don't believe he and his friends sat around talking in poetry, do you?

This argument is waaay beyond me, but basically I believe Satan was a fallen angel who embraced evil, which really just means he turned away from God, because evil is the absence of God. Perhaps everything that was godly and good about him was then destroyed, including any objective form that he had, and then he basically just became some sort of force thingy with no will, always doing evil (yet still completely beyond our comprehension, just as God is).

I really don't have much idea what I'm talking about here, so...ya. Just random musings.

So, does Satan know we exist? I don't know. But it really doesn't matter. Satan is still very real and very powerful and very dangerous.

[Amethystic]

I'd venture a large number of what people claim to be demons are just drug/fever/mentally ill adventures.

Are demonic encounters caused by mental compromises like these, or are they the one causing the problems in the first place? If it's the former, then demonic influence would seemingly be far less prevalent than many think it to be. If it's the latter, well, then how many ill/addicted people out there are suffering from demonic attack?

[The Top Crusader]

48.

[Steve]

48.

Your theology never ceases to amaze me.