The Town of Odyssey

I would like to start out by saying, I mean no offence to anyone in any way, shape, or form. I just want to voice my opinion on this subject. This thread is only for discussion of the topic at hand, so unless you have anything constructive to add, please do not post. And if you have problems with my personal convictions, please PM me.

Anyways, ignorant Christians. What do I mean by ignorant? I mean Christians who are huddled in their little Christian bubble, not daring to learn about the topics they are bashing. Let me start with a few examples.

1) There is a man at my church with four children, but we are only interested in one of them. This kid hates reading, is not doing a very good job in school, and plays video games all the time. He has shown some interest, to me, about reading Harry Potter, but his dad won't let him, even though his dad has not read the books to decide for themselves. 2) Anyone who says they don't believe in evolution, even though they have not studied it at all. Hey, I used to be like this, so I'm not pointing any fingers. I have met so many people who say that evolution is stupid and wrong and evil, even though they know nothing about the subject. They just know what they have been taught in their little Christian circles. I, personally believe in micro-evolution, and so do a fair amount of these people who say they don't believe in evolution at all. People don't get that what they call, "Evolution" They are actually thinking of "Macro-evolution" They don't get that macro is the type where the bacteria evolves into fish>lizards>monkeys>humans, or that micro is where the certain species of frogs change over time to meet with the needs of their habitat. I'm not saying everyone should believe in this, just do your research before you start bashing it. 3) People/schools who teach misinformation about all things non-Christian. My Bible teacher in school,Mr. Howe, was teaching us about how stupid evolution is. He was saying how it is stupid to believe that, now get this, two comets were flying through space when they collided and that created the universe. Did you catch that? two comets, flying though space collided. And then he went on to ask the kids how to deflect that argument. One of the kids then said, Ask them, "Who made the comets?". I have nothing more to say about this.

*Facepalm* Do you get what I am saying now? Christians have these nice little scenarios worked out in their minds about how they can bash other's beliefs, without learning about them. Even my dad, when we were driving in the car didn't have a feasible answer for one of my "devil's advocate" questions. And my dad knows his stuff, I mean, he's studied this stuff. Yet, he didn't have an answer. We are so caught up with how great our attacks are, that we forget that these people aren't stupid. They know their stuff as well. They aren't just atheists to mess with us, they truly an honestly believe what they are saying. [/endrant] *Steps of of soapbox* So, what do you think?

Oh yeah I totally agree. I was raised in a Christian home, Christian school, and... Christian church (it would have been odd to NOT go to a Christian church after the other two, I suppose ), and I just sort of... knew my talking points, but had no clue about what others really thought except for the little things you learn in those circles that are mostly inaccurate. I really think its important to know what you are talking about and arguing against.

I have friends from school who basically are still totally ignorant and its really frustrating.

I too was raised to believe the talking points and let me say my parents didn't teach me these talking points, they thankfully taught me to think critically and actually consider issues which is the main reason I am where I am but there were other authority figures in my life such as Sunday School teachers, Pastors, school teachers and other adults who just gave me the talking points.

I would say that everyone has these talking points they use. I recently converted from Reformed Protestantism to Eastern Orthodoxy and while I was reading about Eastern Orthodoxy I read lots of talking points about Protestants that were totally ridiculous to anyone who knew about actual Protestants. But then I also had some Protestant friends use their own talking points against Eastern Orthodoxy to try and convince me not to convert.

I think that it's easy to come up with neat little anecdotes and make sweeping assumptions about people we're arguing against and they're the easiest way to share your view with new people who come around to your view. And let me tell you it feels pretty cool to use these talking points because they're neat and not at all like real life and everyone within your bubble knows them. So you can stand around in your little bubble and be like, we're so smart because people outside believe argument A right? Then everyone has a good laugh that anyone could actually believe argument A. But of course no one really believes argument A.

I think the most important thing to remember is that people honestly believe these things just like you believe what you believe and that they, like you, rarely fit into neat categories and definitions.

If I’m going to believe something, it’s because I’ve studied all sides of it and have made my decision.
In the Critical Thinking class I took a few terms ago that was one of the lessons in the argument section. If you’re going to debate something, you have to really know about it. You can’t just know ‘your side’.

Couldn't agree more. It drives me bonkers when I hear people--no matter what the topic (theological, political, general)--arguing hardcore for something when they don't have the first clue of what the other side is saying, or of their own beliefs outside of the framework that they've been taught and not built upon. Sometimes it is a problem because the person's beliefs are rooted so shallow that they can't hold up to scrutiny and they eventually give up on their faith...on the opposite side, the problem created can be that the person becomes so dogmatic and strict that they become arrogant and make faith for the perfect and ostracize all others. If not either of the above...you are a huge pain who is dismissed as loony and rude, or you are altogether avoided. Personally I hate discussing stuff with them because it is like talking to a rock wall who doesn't care what you say--just insists that their view is right...because THEY SAY SO. I feel like Christians get so much bad rap for that nowadays because there are extremists screaming at everyone to believe such and such, but they don't give reasons or even portray the behavior they promote. Which adds to the frustration...ignorant and hypocritical Christians...even worse...

Yeah, I agree to. I know all about Evolution, and believe in Micro-Evolution. I can read almost anything I want. (Except extremely inappropriate adult books.) And I have a game station with mostly T-rated games. So it really frustrates me when I meet a lot of Christians in my homeschooling group, who think playing video games is evil, and that it's an incredible sin to read Harry Potter. So I agree with you 100 % Mark.

You know, this, coupled with the mention of Harry Potter, reminded me of the fact that I used to be very anti-Potter all because it was magic. I couldn't see how my dad, a committed Christian, could read them. (Ironically, this was before I became a Christian myself.) I then converted, and grew a bit over the summer, and then in the sixth grade in November, I was sitting in Language Arts, bored out of my mind on a free-reading day (love those...wish we had those at high school). I walk over to the mini-library my teacher had in her room, and lo and behold, a hardcover copy of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (or Philosopher's Stone, for non-Americanese markets). I looked at it and thought, well, I'm bored, might as well check it out.

I was practically begging my teacher to let me borrow it by the end of the class period. I finished the whole series inside of three weeks (this is all reading during classes, mind you, not all of which, I will admit, had to do with reading ).

I'm not saying that you have to experience something to know your stance on it, because you don't. You don't have to, say, convert to Islam or be a terrorist to figure out if it's wrong or not. But I would say to do the research before you pass judgement--research with bias from all sides, not just what you think will make you feel better.

For example, don't go looking at Harry Potter the way Cutting Edge Ministries does. Coming from someone who has been a fan of those books for a long time, and from a Southern Baptist (which is a pretty conservative denomination for those not in the know), these guys are idiots. There is no other word. They are idiots who did not do the research and all they did was say, "ISSA WIZARD! OMGRACIOUS OCCULTIC MATERIOLZORZ!11!!1" and they spend the whole time stuffing their opinion down your throat.

My advice? If you want a good opinion, talk to the people you know who have read the books--not just Harry Potter, and not just books, but those who are in the know and can tell you if you should read it. Also get the opinion of a Christian leader in your life that you trust (parent, pastor, whatever). I know this isn't information that's new to a lot of y'all, but I figured that it's worth mentioning.

Interesting thoughts. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with them, because I really don't know what side I'm on in this argument. On the one hand, I kind of feel that wizards and magic are evil, because that's how I was raised. But, on the other hand, I also read Narnia, which is magic, even though it was written as a Christian series. I guess what I'm trying to say is, a ton of people have told me that I need to read Harry Potter, but I'm a littl heasitant. I want to read them, but I don't want them to influence me in any bad way, you know? Anyway, that's my two cents worth.

-- Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:11 pm --

SoccerLOTR wrote:Couldn't agree more. It drives me bonkers when I hear people--no matter what the topic (theological, political, general)--arguing hardcore for something when they don't have the first clue of what the other side is saying, or of their own beliefs outside of the framework that they've been taught and not built upon. Sometimes it is a problem because the person's beliefs are rooted so shallow that they can't hold up to scrutiny and they eventually give up on their faith...on the opposite side, the problem created can be that the person becomes so dogmatic and strict that they become arrogant and make faith for the perfect and ostracize all others. If not either of the above...you are a huge pain who is dismissed as loony and rude, or you are altogether avoided. Personally I hate discussing stuff with them because it is like talking to a rock wall who doesn't care what you say--just insists that their view is right...because THEY SAY SO. I feel like Christians get so much bad rap for that nowadays because there are extremists screaming at everyone to believe such and such, but they don't give reasons or even portray the behavior they promote. Which adds to the frustration...ignorant and hypocritical Christians...even worse...

And it's the ignorant and hypocritical Christians who are representing us. Such as Harold Camping. (That's a whole different matter that I'm not getting into here, just using him as an example.)

Quote tags fixed ~Woody

~JCGJ~ wrote:I also read Narnia, which is magic, even though it was written as a Christian series.

Please note the Chronicles of Narnia are not an allegory. But a supposal. C.S. Lewis said it was supposed to be what if there was another world. And what if they needed a savior. Not Aslan=Jesus etc.

Mark Prescott wrote:I would like to start out by saying, I mean no offence to anyone in any way, shape, or form. I just want to voice my opinion on this subject. This thread is only for discussion of the topic at hand, so unless you have anything constructive to add, please do not post. And if you have problems with my personal convictions, please PM me.

Anyways, ignorant Christians. What do I mean by ignorant? I mean Christians who are huddled in their little Christian bubble, not daring to learn about the topics they are bashing. Let me start with a few examples.

2) Anyone who says they don't believe in evolution, even though they have not studied it at all. Hey, I used to be like this, so I'm not pointing any fingers. I have met so many people who say that evolution is stupid and wrong and evil, even though they know nothing about the subject. They just know what they have been taught in their little Christian circles. I, personally believe in micro-evolution, and so do a fair amount of these people who say they don't believe in evolution at all. People don't get that what they call, "Evolution" They are actually thinking of "Macro-evolution" They don't get that macro is the type where the bacteria evolves into fish>lizards>monkeys>humans, or that micro is where the certain species of frogs change over time to meet with the needs of their habitat. I'm not saying everyone should believe in this, just do your research before you start bashing it.

*Facepalm* Do you get what I am saying now? Christians have these nice little scenarios worked out in their minds about how they can bash other's beliefs, without learning about them. Even my dad, when we were driving in the car didn't have a feasible answer for one of my "devil's advocate" questions. And my dad knows his stuff, I mean, he's studied this stuff. Yet, he didn't have an answer. We are so caught up with how great our attacks are, that we forget that these people aren't stupid. They know their stuff as well. They aren't just atheists to mess with us, they truly an honestly believe what they are saying. [/endrant] *Steps of of soapbox* So, what do you think?

Okay, so the whole micro-evolution is what most people think of as adaptation, and yes, I do agree with it. It is logical to think that dogs with longer hair like Huskies are going to be better able to survive in cold climates than short haired Chihuahuas. But what I have noticed now that I am going to a school that teaches Evolution (the Macro variety) is that they make there case almost entirely on micro-evolution, and then they say "Oh, yeah and we also know that reptiles evolved from monkeys." So, I might not know THAT MUCH about Evolution, but I don't necessarily have to say "Well you're wrong, and you're stupid so go fall off a mountain," but I can ask them how in the world they make that leap from micro to macro.

Also, to be fair, I see a lot of non-Christians who do the exact same thing. It has also been my experience that it is the non-Christians who are less open to other people's viewpoints. Now, it may just be that the Christians I'm around are better in debates than most, but I've never heard anyone at my church talk to an Evolutionist and tell them that they're stupid for believing in Evolution, but I have had Evolutionists tell me that believing in Creation is stupid, and that I am too am stupid. So yeah, Christians might be ignorant sometimes, but all I'm saying is that we're not the only ones.

And then we can't respond back because no matter what we do, this is seen as being "offensive" or "intolerant" even though we are the ones who have just been rudely and immaturely insulted.

Pirate Oriana wrote:I am going to a school that teaches Evolution (the Macro variety) is that they make there case almost entirely on micro-evolution, and then they say "Oh, yeah and we also know that reptiles evolved from monkeys."

Okay, this is sort of like that conversation thing where you hear something wrong, but what you thought you heard had absolutely nothing to do with what was originally said (in terms of phonics, anyway). How do you get the knowledge that "reptiles evolved from monkeys" from "species are able to adapt to their environment"? No sense whatsoever.

For the Harry Potter stuff, you should check out Jelly's thread about it: http://thetoo.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29824

Not trying to revive it or anything, but its something to check out. I tried my best to tackle some of the Harry Potter issues, apparently it was overlooked.

Anyways I kinda agree about people's ignorance. But it shouldn't just pertain to Christian, but to anybody who doesn't look at both sides and getting full knowledge of the argument before making a judgement. With that being said, the majority of the "ignorant people" are of people with religious denomination and/or the older generation in my personal experience.

I have talked to some of these extremist and sadly most of them believe by not having knowledge about controversial subjects that goes against their religion/belief's, example of this is evolution, is a good thing for them because it might turn themselves away from God.

If you personally do believe in your religion, its always good to be well informed about the subject your going up against.

~JCGJ~ wrote: And it's the ignorant and hypocritical Christians who are representing us. Such as Harold Camping. (That's a whole different matter that I'm not getting into here, just using him as an example.)

Nah,I prefer Jerry Falwell. Who wouldn't blame the "pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America....." for the 9/11 attack.

Knight Fisher wrote:

~JCGJ~ wrote:I also read Narnia, which is magic, even though it was written as a Christian series.

Please note the Chronicles of Narnia are not an allegory. But a supposal. C.S. Lewis said it was supposed to be what if there was another world. And what if they needed a savior. Not Aslan=Jesus etc.

I read this somewhere on a site once. Can I ask where did you get this info from? I'm pretty sure even if the author made a clear answer, its up to the person's interpretation if people wanted the series to be an allegory to them or not.

gunblader3 wrote:

Knight Fisher wrote:

~JCGJ~ wrote:I also read Narnia, which is magic, even though it was written as a Christian series.

Please note the Chronicles of Narnia are not an allegory. But a supposal. C.S. Lewis said it was supposed to be what if there was another world. And what if they needed a savior. Not Aslan=Jesus etc.

I read this somewhere on a site once. Can I ask where did you get this info from? I'm pretty sure even if the author made a clear answer, its up to the person's interpretation if people wanted the series to be an allegory to them or not.

I think it was in one of his letters to Children, but I am not sure. But he made it very clear it is not an allegory.

Knight Fisher wrote:I think it was in one of his letters to Children, but I am not sure. But he made it very clear it is not an allegory.

I assume you’re referring to the following quote.

C.S. Lewis wrote:I did not say to myself 'Let us represent Jesus as He really is in our world by a Lion in Narnia'; I said, 'Let us suppose that there were a land like Narnia and that the Son of God, as he became a Man in our world, became a Lion there, and then imagine what would happen.'

At first read that may seem to be saying the stories aren’t meant to represent Jesus, but in fact he’s saying just the opposite.
Remember, Lewis was a very educated man. Sometimes you have to really study what he’s saying to understand what he means because of his style of wording.
He is saying that Aslan doesn’t represent Jesus as he really is, meaning every single thing Aslan does is not meant to translate directly to a portrayal of Jesus. However, Aslan does represent Jesus in the events that unfold in Narnia, meaning the overall story of sacrifice, resurrection, etc. do very purposefully represent the main events in Jesus’ life and His role in our salvation.

Yes and no. Yes somethings are similar. No it is not an allegory.

Knight Fisher wrote:Yes and no. Yes somethings are similar. No it is not an allegory.

That is true. But that wasn’t what I was talking about.
In the strict sense, no it isn’t an allegory, because as I said not everything is symbolic. That is what Lewis meant when he said it isn’t allegory, because he knew the true meaning of the word. He even wrote a book on the subject.
But you said the stories weren’t meant to be “Aslan=Jesus” which is wrong. They were.

In one of the books, (I'm not entirely sure which one) one of the older children asked, when Aslan said they couldn't come back into Narnia, "Will we ever see you again?" And Aslan replied, "I exist as a different form in your world." I took that to mean, "In your world, I am called Jesus."
(Now, I know I didn't quote this exactly right, and also, if anyone knows what book(s) that scene is from, please let me know.)

He never actually says Jesus.

~JCGJ~ wrote:Now, I know I didn't quote this exactly right, and also, if anyone knows what book(s) that scene is from, please let me know.

That’s one of my favorite moments from any of the stories.

The Voyage of the Dawn Treader wrote:[In your world] I have another name. You must learn to know me by that name. This was the very reason why you were brought to Narnia, that by knowing me here for a little, you may know me better there.

You are absolutely correct that he means in our world he is Jesus. Although the actual name isn’t used, the meaning is intentional.

Yes there are some allegorical parts. But it is not an actual allegory.