Harry Potter

[Marvin D.]

I agree. The White Witch is portrayed as Satan, but Harry Potter uses witchcraft!

[Caswin]

(Sorry, I've been busy.) I know I've said this before, but it bears stressing: The characters use magic. If they never mentioned the word "witch" -- which is more of a semantic thing; according to Darcie, it's a word for "a woman who uses magic" in Britain -- there would be nothing in the actual content to suggest it was any worse than your average work of fantasy.

[Shennifer]

(Sorry, I've been busy.) I know I've said this before, but it bears stressing: The characters use magic. If they never mentioned the word "witch" -- which is more of a semantic thing; according to Darcie, it's a word for "a woman who uses magic" in Britain -- there would be nothing in the actual content to suggest it was any worse than your average work of fantasy.

agreed. and people who actually practice the occult don't buy wands and say silly Latin words! Harry Potter takes place in an entirely different world, which is invisible to the non magic people, and no there wouldn't be a story without magic, but what I'm saying is that there is so much more to Harry Potter than just the fantasy element of magic; there's good vs. evil, bravery, friendship, loyalty, the growth and development of characters, interesting and funny plotlines and so much depth and an amazing story that is further enhanced by excellent writing.

[Trixie Belden]

There may be much more to it than that, but it's still an essential part of the series to "buy wands and say silly Latin words". All that matters to be it that it goes against the Bible and what I've been taught, and I simply can't do that. This is much more than a matter of choice. This is God's choice!

[American Eagle]

Look. You all know that the Harry Potter series uses witchcraft and other such things the Bible condemns. I'm going to quote Trixie:

Deuteronomy 18:10 says:

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft.

Unless you can disprove this Bible verse, there is no response. Do not use, "But you guys!! Lord of the Rings is no different!!@!" That doesn't work. Go by the Bible, and live it. Don't compare evil to a worse evil.

[Caswin]

Do not use, "But you guys!! Lord of the Rings is no different!!@!" That doesn't work.

It works (!!@!) if you don't consider Lord of the Rings to be an evil book of witchcraft and sinfulness. "Look. You all know that the Lord of the Rings books use witchcraft and other such things the Bible condemns" would have been equally accurate, although if you do consider it merely a lesser evil for the same reasons, then that's a different playing field, in which case I'll admit I don't have a ready answer. (That said, claiming there is "no response" to be made if your opponent can't disprove a verse from the Bible is quite a leap.)

Although, since you brought it up...

Deuteronomy 18:10 says:

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft.

Unless you can disprove this Bible verse, there is no response.

Didn't Jesus fulfill that? If we hold ourselves to the standards of Deuteronomy, most members of this board are probably offending God by eating cheeseburgers.

[American Eagle]

Do not use, "But you guys!! Lord of the Rings is no different!!@!" That doesn't work.

It works (!!@!) if you don't consider Lord of the Rings to be an evil book of witchcraft and sinfulness. "Look. You all know that the Lord of the Rings books use witchcraft and other such things the Bible condemns" would be an equally apt statement, although if you do consider it merely a lesser evil for the same reasons, then that's a different playing field, in which case I'll admit I don't have a ready answer.

Have I once said LOTR is okay? Show me that post. I have never read the books, and am undecided on the films. I have not once said they are acceptable, though. It works? I don't only mean in debating; I mean it doesn't make it right.

Although, since you brought it up...

Deuteronomy 18:10 says:

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft.

Unless you can disprove this Bible verse, there is no response.

Didn't Jesus fulfill that? If we hold ourselves to the standards of Deuteronomy, most members of this board are probably offending God by eating cheeseburgers.

No. The principles of the OT aren't thrown out the window. Many of the traditions (clothing, festivals, sacrifices, etc.) are specifically for the Jews alone, but that is not an excuse to disregard the other commands the Bible gives. (Under that reasoning, it's okay to steal, lie, worship idols, etc., because the Ten Commandments were in the OT.) I disagree.

Let's not get that off-topic. You want a NT verse? Try 1 Timothy 4:1: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" Not good enough? I'll try a OT verse that isn't related to OT law. 2 Chronicles 33:6: "[Manasseh] observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger." Is this talking about a covenant with Isreal? No; it says those things provoked the LORD to anger.

If you want to try to discredit those verses, feel free. But do not use some peoples' acceptance of LOTR as an excuse to go against God's Word. Two wrongs certainly don't make a right.

[Caswin]

Have I once said LOTR is okay? Show me that post. I have never read the books, and am undecided on the films. I have not once said they are acceptable, though.

I think I have this covered.

...then that's a different playing field, in which case I'll admit I don't have a ready answer.

Most other Christians I have met, whatever their opinion on Harry Potter or other controversial subjects, have been fine with the magic in Lord of the Rings, The Wizard of Oz or The Chronicles of Narnia. (I always did like Doctor Cornelius.) Presumably, they -- or we, to include myself -- don't believe it constitutes the "witchcraft" condemned by the Bible. If we can't work from that, then I'll admit (again) that I don't have an answer handy.

If you want to try to discredit those verses, feel free.

Far from it -- you were the one who brought up "disproving" Bible verses as the only means to counter your arguments in the first place. The question is whether or not they apply.

[American Eagle]

Have I once said LOTR is okay? Show me that post. I have never read the books, and am undecided on the films. I have not once said they are acceptable, though.

I think I have this covered.

...then that's a different playing field, in which case I'll admit I don't have a ready answer.

Most other Christians I have met, whatever their opinion on Harry Potter or other controversial subjects, have been fine with the magic in Lord of the Rings, The Wizard of Oz or The Chronicles of Narnia. (I always did like Doctor Cornelius.) Presumably, they -- or we, to include myself -- don't believe it constitutes the "witchcraft" condemned by the Bible. If we can't work from that, then I'll admit (again) that I don't have an answer handy.

I understand. Comparison of the different films is a discussion for another thread, though.

If you want to try to discredit those verses, feel free.

Far from it -- you were the one who brought up "disproving" Bible verses as the only means to counter your arguments in the first place. The question is whether or not they apply.

Oh, I chose the wrong word. The Bible can never be disproved, but I meant prove that those verses don't apply.

Caswin, you can read the verses, and it is obvious what God is referring to: witchcraft, devils, wizards and enchantments (see the verses I quoted). God hates witchcraft, including the witchcraft shown and glorified (used by the "good guys") in the Harry Potter series. No amount of life lessons (bravery, courage, selflessness, etc.) can diminish this. Do you agree?

[Caswin]

Caswin, you can read the verses, and it is obvious what God is referring to: witchcraft, devils, wizards and enchantments (see the verses I quoted). God hates witchcraft, including the witchcraft shown and glorified (used by the "good guys") in the Harry Potter series. No amount of life lessons (bravery, courage, selflessness, etc.) can diminish this. Do you agree?

With the caveat that the lessons in the series are beside the point, I would say that the "witchcraft" in Harry Potter is as worthy of rebuke as the magic in all of the other fantasy series that have been brought into this debate (mostly by me). Since I don't think that was what the Bible was getting at, I can't say as I do.

[American Eagle]

Okay, then that's all I have to say on this matter. Nice talking with you. *unsubscribes topic*

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

I would just like to point out here that alot of Wiccan groups have said that Harry Potter is not a very good reflection on them and have denied it. Just saying. Oh, and Wiccans are actually the ones that supposedly practice magic and yes they do identify as witches.

[TigerintheShadows]

Look. You all know that the Harry Potter series uses witchcraft and other such things the Bible condemns. I'm going to quote Trixie:

Deuteronomy 18:10 says:

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft.

Unless you can disprove this Bible verse, there is no response. Do not use, "But you guys!! Lord of the Rings is no different!!@!" That doesn't work. Go by the Bible, and live it. Don't compare evil to a worse evil.

There's no real such thing as "worse evil;" all evil is evil. There's not a real shade of gray--it's just evil.

And I guess my point was just ignored...

I'm not going to argue with anyone's moral standards, nor am I going to state that there's any way to disprove the Bible--mostly because there isn't. As Bernard states in Bernard and Jeremiah, "If God says something, you need to believe it, know it, and preach it." God said everything in the Bible (according to 2 Timothy 3:16), so it's not like there's room for debate.

There's a difference, though, between reading something and completely regarding it as fictional and nothing else (which is, really, what most--if not all--people do with HP) and reading something and believing it to be true. To me, the witchcraft is indeed sinful, as are a few of the other things done in the books (some of which, such as alcohol comsumption, are acceptable British customs, which qualify because the books are set there). However, I think that as long as a) your parents let you and b) you don't let it go to your head, they're okay to read.

[Sam15]

I am still reading Harry Potter but they are very good from what ive read

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

Look. You all know that the Harry Potter series uses witchcraft and other such things the Bible condemns. I'm going to quote Trixie:

Deuteronomy 18:10 says:

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft.

Unless you can disprove this Bible verse, there is no response. Do not use, "But you guys!! Lord of the Rings is no different!!@!" That doesn't work. Go by the Bible, and live it. Don't compare evil to a worse evil.

Oh AE must I drag out the Leviticus verses again? >_> That verse is 1. in the law, and 2. if you follow the law you much follow all the law. Therefore, do you wear clothing with two different types of stitches in it?

[Dallas R.]

Okay. I am going to try hard not to argue about the dangers or non-dangers of Harry Potter, though I can say that about fifty posts ago I commented that I was surprised there weren't more people hating Harry Potter on here, and now I'm regretting ever bringing that up, because I unfortunately got my wish.

For years I would argue with my friends about the dangers of Harry Potter, and how the books "go against my religion". But after all my arguing, now that I've started reading the books I no longer argue against the series.

Then again, I'm still not going to promote the series either, because in a sense, that would mean I've crossed the line between reading fantasy for fun, and turning it into promoting a book that doesn't stand for what I believe in. If I were to start making Harry Potter sound more important than the bible, then I've obviously gone against my beliefs.

One thing I don't like about the series is that it's advertised as a kids series. Even without the magic, the later books get into some pretty mature subject matter, and I really respect Trixie Belden for standing up for what she believes. At age twelve, even if your parents would let you read the books, I wouldn't suggest them. I know a lot of us seem to be arguing against you, and maybe some of us are, but thanks for sticking to your beliefs.

Finally in a very small argument that hopefully doesn't promote the series, we've brought up several other magical series that promote magic, so I was wondering what people's views were on the show "Bewitched." My mom remembers growing up watching it, and thinks it's a cute T.V. series, but really, witchcraft is just as evident in that series as it is in Harry Potter.

[American Eagle]

Look. You all know that the Harry Potter series uses witchcraft and other such things the Bible condemns. I'm going to quote Trixie:

Deuteronomy 18:10 says:

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft.

Unless you can disprove this Bible verse, there is no response. Do not use, "But you guys!! Lord of the Rings is no different!!@!" That doesn't work. Go by the Bible, and live it. Don't compare evil to a worse evil.

Oh AE must I drag out the Leviticus verses again? >_> That verse is 1. in the law, and 2. if you follow the law you much follow all the law. Therefore, do you wear clothing with two different types of stitches in it?

I'd planned to leave this discussion altogether, but since you seemingly ignored what I posted right after that, here you are:

Let's not get that off-topic. You want a NT verse? Try 1 Timothy 4:1: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" Not good enough? I'll try a OT verse that isn't related to OT law. 2 Chronicles 33:6: "[Manasseh] observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger." Is this talking about a covenant with Isreal? No; it says those things provoked the LORD to anger.

[Marvin D.]

Now that. Is. Awesome. AE. I totally agree with you!

[Danielle Abigail Maxwell]

Look. You all know that the Harry Potter series uses witchcraft and other such things the Bible condemns. I'm going to quote Trixie:

Deuteronomy 18:10 says:

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft.

Unless you can disprove this Bible verse, there is no response. Do not use, "But you guys!! Lord of the Rings is no different!!@!" That doesn't work. Go by the Bible, and live it. Don't compare evil to a worse evil.

There's no real such thing as "worse evil;" all evil is evil. There's not a real shade of gray--it's just evil.

And I guess my point was just ignored...

I'm not going to argue with anyone's moral standards, nor am I going to state that there's any way to disprove the Bible--mostly because there isn't. As Bernard states in Bernard and Jeremiah, "If God says something, you need to believe it, know it, and preach it." God said everything in the Bible (according to 2 Timothy 3:16), so it's not like there's room for debate.

There's a difference, though, between reading something and completely regarding it as fictional and nothing else (which is, really, what most--if not all--people do with HP) and reading something and believing it to be true. To me, the witchcraft is indeed sinful, as are a few of the other things done in the books (some of which, such as alcohol comsumption, are acceptable British customs, which qualify because the books are set there). However, I think that as long as a) your parents let you and b) you don't let it go to your head, they're okay to read.

Quoted for truth.

If you were to attempt to stay away from all the evil in this world, you know what, you wouldn't be able to. People run head first into a jungle that holds evil to preach the good news of Christ. Even reading some Christian books could be considered sin... so, where does the line get placed, and how would you know?

LOL. AE, LOTR is no different... as is neither "Bewitched", "Twilight"... and probably a lot of other books that have witchcraft or magic or sorcery. There may be a different on preference of a good book... which, it seems, might really be the true argument here. Because if you separate LOTR and HP into different groups, you basically are saying there are, as TITS says, different forms of evil, and one worse than another. Sin is sin, evil is evil. To God, is murder worse than lying? No.

Magic is magic is magic... okay. that's a definite thing. But can we read something and not let it go to our heads? (I realize there are substantial amount of people in the world that really do let books go to their head, and HP is one of them. I remember reading a magazine article that said "If HP dies, and your child feels this, do this..." before the 7th book was published. Yeah... it totally sounded like kids were taking it to heart and believing it was true. I was laughing my head off. Really? Would I care if HP died? To make things better, I would have let him die... the series dragged on too much. And the ending 20 years later was... horrible. JK Rowling may be able to write (10x better than Stephanie Meyer), but her endings aren't that good...)

Yeah, we can read something and not let it go to our heads.

(I'm amazed this hasn't gone to CCDS)

On recent topic, HP is good. I found the last two books to drag out the series. But otherwise, I enjoyed them. The movies... meh. I'm anxious to see the first part of the 7th book. Waaaay too many movies to watch this summer... lol.

(I don't let the series go to my head... I've read a lot of things that have magic or something to that affect in it. Cool affects for a book... no use in this world. I don't believe in it... but why should that keep me from reading a good book? Who ever has to say the good book can't have this or that in it? *shrug*)

[StrongNChrist]

I wasn't planning on rejoining this debate.....and I agree with DAM. I'm suprised this hasn't been moved to CCDS and I don't feel like trying to move another topic after my last failure....

I just thought I'd add that the magic was not the only reason I disliked the movies.....If people were to watch them I wouldn't recommend young children. The movies teach a bit of disrespect. Harry has never shown any respect to his uncle or aunt....and he and his friends are constantly disobeying the teachers and getting away with it. For me, I'd say it's a lot like Disney's Alladin movies. They teach a lot of the wrong morals, and yet they have a fascinating story plot that makes it interesting to watch.