Harry Potter

[American Eagle]

LOL. AE, LOTR is no different... as is neither "Bewitched", "Twilight"... and probably a lot of other books that have witchcraft or magic or sorcery.

All I have to say: never heard this before. Wow.

I appreciate all the Bible verses you guys have given in support of the series. Indeed.

[TigerintheShadows]

What I would like to say for the record is what a lot of other people are saying--magic isn't the only problem in the books. Alcoholism, disrespect towards authority, and cursing, while two out of three are apparently acceptable for teenagers in Britain, are three parts of the books that irk me (she could've gone the Sly Cooper route--give it a lemonade bar!).

I like the books; they are well-written and I enjoy them. However, I strongly disagree with the "children's book" labeling. This is more young adult territory--much like Twilight (which should be rated R--for Ridiculous!). If there's anything kids can take away from these books, all sorcery aside, it's that things like alcoholism and cursing are okay, which they are certainly not.

I prefer to look at the books from differing perspectives--on the one hand, they are good, well written books that I can stand to read over numerous times. However, on the other, I take into account Phillipians 4:8, which has been already mentioned, and it says, "Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."

I choose to read these books because of the quality, the character development, and because they're fun to read. But that's about it. While I believe that magic is wrong in any way, no matter how you use it, and I'm not a big fan of certain word choices that could have been left out and other mature elements, I think it's okay to read the books pretty much based on your opinion. If you believe they are against your beliefs, or if you simply don't like them, then that's great--fantastic, even. And if you love them to death and don't see that there's a reason why you can't read them, that's awesome.

And kudos to all of you--Trixie, AE, Caswin, DAM, and the rest of you--who stand up for your beliefs! I think it's awesome that you assert your opinions in such a way that you're not trying to blow each other up about it (and yes, I've had experiences on forums where the people were like that! ). I like the fact that we can debate, but it's "I'm-trying-to-explain-why-I-think-the-way-I-do" instead of "1'M-G0NN@-R1P-UR-H3AD-0FF-1F-U-S@Y-1-MOR-WURD!" Considering the debates I've had to deal with through life, I think this kind of thing is a breath of fresh air!

[Trixie Belden]

And kudos to all of you--Trixie, AE, Caswin...

Well, Caswin's beliefs are that Harry Potter is acceptable. Caswin's the one that I've been arguing with!

And thank you.

[American Eagle]

And kudos to all of you--Trixie, AE, Caswin...

Well, Caswin's beliefs are that Harry Potter is acceptable. Caswin's the one that I've been arguing with!

I think Tiger is meaning everyone who has discussed this, from both point of views.

Well-put, Tiger. Although we do have slight differing opinions on the matter, I respect your opinion, and think you're stated yourself pretty well. (This would generally go for the rest of you, as well.) My conviction remains unchanged, though.

[TigerintheShadows]

That's awesome. There are so many who hear one side and join, then hear another, and it's like "I JOIN YOU NOW!" and the rest of us are like, "Huh? But you--I--and that--AAAAH! Confusion!" People who can stick to one opinion and not change their decisions based on what everyone else is doing...that's something you don't find in the world everyday.

And thanks to you, too, AE!

[Elrohir]

A lot of you guys argue about the word "magic", but does anyone actually know what it means? Can someone on this thread clearly define it? What does it mean today? What does it mean in Harry Potter? What does it mean in the Bible? Why is it wrong in the Bible? You've got to give this a little more thought before you go on taking sides.

[Caswin]

A lot of you guys argue about the word "magic", but does anyone actually know what it means? Can someone on this thread clearly define it? What does it mean today? What does it mean in Harry Potter? What does it mean in the Bible? Why is it wrong in the Bible? You've got to give this a little more thought before you go on taking sides.

This crossed my mind more than once, but I was hesitant to come out and say it (especially now that the debate has settled). That said, I think it's a very good point to keep in mind.

[Marvin D.]

So yesterday I watched some of harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. PG-rated. It should be PG-13! Dark. Gloomy. Witchcraft. While it may be awesome to fly and have powers, why fill our minds with junk?

[Danielle Abigail Maxwell]

So yesterday I watched some of harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. PG-rated. It should be PG-13! Dark. Gloomy. Witchcraft. While it may be awesome to fly and have powers, why fill our minds with junk?

You do understand the ratings, right? Because the only reason a movie would truly be PG-13 is if it uses profanity (and last I knew, HP didn't use much of that) and/or violence, and something sexual. (AKA: She's Out of My League is rated R FOR A REASON... ugh)

Let me ask you a question. Ever seen The Jungle Book? Is it a kids movie? Or Sleeping Beauty? They are cartoons, rated G or PG. But are they REALLY kids movies?

Could HP be the same way? Yeah. There is ALWAYS an intended audience. Like Twilight. That's definitely for the teenager girls that like Robert Pattenson... yuck. That's why everyone complains. Because if you don't fit into that category, you aren't going to like it (probably), or you will complain somehow. If you're a part of that group, you probably defend the movie.

HP is probably targeted for mature, 16-25 year olds. Yeah, 13 year olds watch it, but its either 1) over their head (like the books), and 2) just cool looking. They don't grasp it. They just see and nod. That's why I get uneasy when I'm seeing 12 year olds reading HP... um... can you seriously understand that? another reason why kids go gaga... they don't get it normally. 12 year olds reading Twilight... easier to read, but okay, seriously, AH!!!!!!!!!!!

G means General Audience.
PG means Parental Guidance suggested.
PG-13 means suggested audience 13 years old and up. (so, you wouldn't really be saving many if you put this requirement on... it just warns about some things)
R means is Restricted to 17 and up. That means you can expect just about anything...
There are higher ones, but they are rare to be seen, because in this day and age, film makers/writers try to center it around the general population. Meaning: teenagers and emerging adults. yeah...

So, once again, Sleeping Beauty, a kids movie or is it targeted for something else? HP is the same exact way. Would you want Sleeping Beauty, but not HP just because of a rating, AND because it seems like its a kids movie and HP isn't?

The answer: they are the same. Why? Hmm....

[TigerintheShadows]

So yesterday I watched some of harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. PG-rated. It should be PG-13! Dark. Gloomy. Witchcraft. While it may be awesome to fly and have powers, why fill our minds with junk?

In that case, couldn't you question why they made the movies in the first place? And while on that tangent, why would she have written the books for movies to be made out of them?

Whatever you have to say about the books, you have to admit, J.K. Rowling (some say Roh-ling, I say Raow-ling. Yeah, I'm definitely from the South!) is brilliant. She is a talented author and has certainly a great sense of humor and satire and a wonderful imagination. Whatever you have to say about the books' content, she is brilliant. Just thought I'd say that to make sure--no one who has read Harry Potter can really say that the writing itself is bad (except for certain words used that could stand omittance).

Could HP be the same way? Yeah. There is ALWAYS an intended audience. Like Twilight. That's definitely for the teenager girls that like Robert Pattenson... yuck. That's why everyone complains. Because if you don't fit into that category, you aren't going to like it (probably), or you will complain somehow. If you're a part of that group, you probably defend the movie.

Honestly, just because there's an intended target audience really doesn't necessarily entail that they--and only they--will like it. That isn't what you're saying, I understand, but I'd like to bring up something from my third grade year (I'm goin' into the old days, baby!). We had a game called "Movies" that we played all the time--someone would say the first letters of every word in the movie's title, and the first person to guess the movie's title got to say their movie. More often than not, there would be R-rated movies coming up at least five times in the game. These kids would have seen the movies and not really been affected. Just shows the kind of people I used to hang out with, right?

HP is probably targeted for mature, 16-25 year olds. Yeah, 13 year olds watch it, but its either 1) over their head (like the books), and 2) just cool looking. They don't grasp it. They just see and nod. That's why I get uneasy when I'm seeing 12 year olds reading HP... um... can you seriously understand that? another reason why kids go gaga... they don't get it normally. 12 year olds reading Twilight... easier to read, but okay, seriously, AH!!!!!!!!!!!

The scarier thing is more often the case--the twelve and thirteen-year-olds actually grasping what's being said. There are people at my school who read adult books--and none of it is over their heads. Of course, the only reason I know about this is because I tend to percieve a lot of things most of my other close (all are Christians, thankfully!) friends either don't percieve or don't care about. But if it weren't for those close friends and for show choir, I'd beg to be homeschooled.

PG-13 means suggested audience 13 years old and up. (so, you wouldn't really be saving many if you put this requirement on... it just warns about some things)

The thing is, most kids I know aren't the kids who pay attention. Almost everyone I talk to is practically amazed that I was not allowed to see PG-13 movies until the actual age of thirteen. At first, I felt that the rule was bad, but after seeing my first PG-13 movie (it was an HP movie, because my dad checked it out and said it was okay), I understood why. Movies are rated the way they are for a reason. The filmraters aren't stupid, they know what they're doing. Going back to what Marvin said:

Dark. Gloomy. Witchcraft.

The mood of a movie does not determine the rating; it is the amount of violence, scary scenes, sexual connotations, and profanity. It has nothing to do with the mood. At any rate, a large subplot was introducing the creepyness (for lack of a better term) of the dementors, which are to basically create depression in a person's life by dredging up bad memories and extracting the bad ones. It was supposed to be dark. And isn't the weather in Britain pretty much perma-gloomy? It's not like they were purposefully making it a sad movie; British weather, while not rainy all year, does have its weeks of overcast skies. The other movies have this quality, too. I don't see any complaints about other specific movies because of this.

The whole series, as well, does get progressively darker in content as it goes. That is because in the battle of good vs. evil, you're usually given easy tasks first--then it gradually goes into the more difficult, sticky situations. I think that was part of the point of the plots of the books--they're gradually more intricate, dark, and intense, and it all culminates into the climactic grand finale and the conclusion.

And for the record, you can't really have Harry Potter without witchcraft. Neither can you have Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, and every other media we deem as "acceptable" for kids. The fact is, witchcraft, magic, whatever you call it, it is occultic and evil. Simple as that. People attack HP for magic usage, but ignore the other media that is deemed acceptable--as has been Harry Potter--even though it contains just as much of this magic as HP.

[StrongNChrist]

So yesterday I watched some of harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. PG-rated. It should be PG-13! Dark. Gloomy. Witchcraft. While it may be awesome to fly and have powers, why fill our minds with junk?

In that case, couldn't you question why they made the first place? And while on that tangent, why would she have written the books for movies to be made out of them?

Whatever you have to say about the books, you have to admit, J.K. Rowling (some say Roh-ling, I say Raow-ling. Yeah, I'm definitely from the South!) is brilliant. She is a talented author and has certainly a great sense of humor and satire and a wonderful imagination. Whatever you have to say about the books' content, she is brilliant. Just thought I'd say that to make sure--no one who has read Harry Potter can really say that the writing itself is bad (except for certain words used that could stand omittance).

This I have to agree with. I might dislike the movies...never read the books...but despite my disliking them and disagreeing with them I can honestly admit that the author was brilliant. The story line was amazing. The plot was really good. It was interesting, it was fascinating, it held my attention - unlike Twilight...she had a great imagination, to be able to come up with a series like HP.

[TigerintheShadows]

Right up there with Tolkien and Lewis--all I'm sayin'.

[Marvin D.]

Read this!

http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/biography.cfm

And....tbe Bible says, "Abstain from ALL appearances of evil." Why don't we follow that?

[Termite]

Soo... Why do we watch Disney if it has witches in it? And the Wizard of Oz?

[Marvin D.]

Exactly why I don't watch them.

[TigerintheShadows]

Have we not made this point...and reiterated it...and reiterated it...and, in case I forgot, reiterated it?

I think that in general, we have all mentioned how we feel about HP and exactly why we do or don't read the books or watch the movies. We understand that some people don't like the magic and other things of that nature, and they choose not to read them for this very reason. And that's okay. There are some people who don't think that it's going to affect them, because they know that it's all a fantasy and that magic, no matter the motive for usage, is indeed a sin. Yet they choose to read all seven books and they enjoy them. That is just as okay.

What I seem to gather from where I am locally--not necessarily from here--is that Christians who don't like Harry Potter seem to think that you'll go to hell or something if you like the books. You are no less a good Christian depending on the books you read or the TV you watch. My brother loves The Lord of the Rings and The Chronicles of Narnia. So do my parents and I (well, more the latter than the former; I'm only halfway through The Two Towers). Those series both involve the use of magic and sorcery. We are no less Christian than the conservative at our church who won't even watch Sleeping Beauty (figuratively speaking, of course; I'm not even sure if there is such a person at my church).

I understand a lack of desire to fill one's mind with junk, and it's perfectly fine. I understand your opinions. But I seriously think it's time to move on and, should the discussion continue, that it be about something other than this.

[Termite]

It all comes down to opinions... "They're like a nose: everyone has them."

Personal preference, people. =P Ultimately it's between you and God to decide how to interpret the scripture. Yes, you obviously try to follow them to the letter, but then everyone shapes their letter differently, no?

[Marvin D.]

Look. You all know that the Harry Potter series uses witchcraft and other such things the Bible condemns. I'm going to quote Trixie:

Deuteronomy 18:10 says:

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft.

Unless you can disprove this Bible verse, there is no response. Do not use, "But you guys!! Lord of the Rings is no different!!@!" That doesn't work. Go by the Bible, and live it. Don't compare evil to a worse evil.

There's no real such thing as "worse evil;" all evil is evil. There's not a real shade of gray--it's just evil.

And I guess my point was just ignored...

I'm not going to argue with anyone's moral standards, nor am I going to state that there's any way to disprove the Bible--mostly because there isn't. As Bernard states in Bernard and Jeremiah, "If God says something, you need to believe it, know it, and preach it." God said everything in the Bible (according to 2 Timothy 3:16), so it's not like there's room for debate.

There's a difference, though, between reading something and completely regarding it as fictional and nothing else (which is, really, what most--if not all--people do with HP) and reading something and believing it to be true. To me, the witchcraft is indeed sinful, as are a few of the other things done in the books (some of which, such as alcohol comsumption, are acceptable British customs, which qualify because the books are set there). However, I think that as long as a) your parents let you and b) you don't let it go to your head, they're okay to read.

Quoted for truth.



LOL. AE, LOTR is no different... as is neither "Bewitched", "Twilight"... and probably a lot of other books that have witchcraft or magic or sorcery. There may be a different on preference of a good book... which, it seems, might really be the true argument here. Because if you separate LOTR and HP into different groups, you basically are saying there are, as TITS says, different forms of evil, and one worse than another. Sin is sin, evil is evil. To God, is murder worse than lying? No.

Magic is magic is magic... okay. that's a definite thing. But can we read something and not let it go to our heads? (I realize there are substantial amount of people in the world that really do let books go to their head, and HP is one of them.

Yeah, we can read something and not let it go to our heads.

I couldn't disagree with you more.
1. Reading gets stuck in your head. Can you name the main characters of the book? Yes you can. I can't. I don't watch it. The only character I know, besides Harry, is Ron and Lord Voldemort.
2. There are no different forms of sin, yes. But...if we watch Harry Potter, right after we do it, we fall on our knees and pray, "O Lord, forgive me for watching HP on purpose. I know it was wrong, but I couldn't resist."? I don't think so. We know it's wrong! And that's coming from DAM and TINT. So if your mom grounds you for say, telling a lie, which is SIN, she has to ground you for watching HP, which is sin. And that's what TINT said.

Let the contreversial comments begin. At least I know AE and Trixie agree.

Post fixed ~Jelly

[TigerintheShadows]

1. Reading gets stuck in your head. Can you name the main characters of the book? Yes you can. I can't. I don't watch it. The only character I know, besides Harry, is Ron and Lord Voldemort.

But you said it right there yourself--the reason that you can't name the main characters is because you don't watch it. And memories are different things to different people. Some may only remember Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Draco, and Voldemort, whereas some others may remember Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Draco, Neville, Luna, Snape, McGonagall, Dumbledore, James and Lily Potter, Sirius, Lupin, Wormtail, the rest of the Weasleys, Cho, Lucius, Narcissa, Bellatrix, Voldemort, and pretty much everyone else out of the loads and loads of characters included in the books. Just because an element in a book gets stuck in your head doesn't mean that you're going to immediately go out and do the same thing.

2. There are no different forms of sin, yes. But...if we watch Harry Potter, right after we do it, we fall on our knees and pray, "O Lord, forgive me for watching HP on purpose. I know it was wrong, but I couldn't resist."? I don't think so. We know it's wrong! And that's coming from DAM and TINT. So if your mom grounds you for say, telling a lie, which is SIN, she has to ground you for watching HP, which is sin. And that's what TINT said.

If I recall correctly, I never once said that reading the books is a sin. Reading something doesn't qualify as a sin--it's what you do with what you've read. Several Christians I know have read a few things from the Qu'ran. This does not make them immediately Islam--nor does it qualify as sin. It is the same with HP. Reading these books--all of which do, indeed, have some elements of Wicca in them--hasn't made me a part of a coven. Nor will it in the future. I know that a lot of people are very conservative--as, apparently, Marvin is--and that's fine. Those of us that choose to read Harry Potter are not sinning. Please explain how reading these books is a sin--particularly when there are similar elements in LotR and (particularly) CoN, both of which are generally accepted for Christians to read. And please don't mention the magic thing. That song's already gotten old.

[StrongNChrist]

1. Reading gets stuck in your head. Can you name the main characters of the book? Yes you can. I can't. I don't watch it. The only character I know, besides Harry, is Ron and Lord Voldemort.

You remember more then me, and I've seen the movies Harry Potter is the only name I remember...and that's because that's what it's called.

2. There are no different forms of sin, yes. But...if we watch Harry Potter, right after we do it, we fall on our knees and pray, "O Lord, forgive me for watching HP on purpose. I know it was wrong, but I couldn't resist."? I don't think so. We know it's wrong! And that's coming from DAM and TINT. So if your mom grounds you for say, telling a lie, which is SIN, she has to ground you for watching HP, which is sin. And that's what TINT said.

Lately, while rereading over this thread...and different debates in CCDS I can't seem to get the Bible verse out of my head. I don't have the exact location, nor the exact words but I remember Jesus said to "not try to take the stick out of your brother's eye until you remove the log out of your own." In other words, people who don't like Harry Potter shouldn't judge others for them liking it. If it's wrong to read or to watch HP then let God deal with them, and not us.