Harry Potter

[TigerintheShadows]

I think that is a good question to raise, Elrohir. In Harry Potter, magic is defined as a certain ability that one is born with. In LotR, I think it's something similar (but having never finished the series nor seen the movies, I've forgotten a lot of it by now). In Narnia, it's basically the guidelines for how the place is run. In the Bible, it's an attempt to manipulate things by demonic power. So by that theory, one's opinion of the magic in HP as compared to what the Bible says should have some base in the differences between the two.

[Termite]

Well, the White Witch is called that, because she uses the good magic for witchcraft...

In LotR, the Valar (the 'archangels' of Middle Earth, underneath the creator) granted eight wizards power(magic) to help and serve Middle Earth. (then Saruman used his for bad, etc, etc)

[Sherlock]

Okay, really quick response to the argument that "Harry Potter is a Sin".

First, an inanimate, object cannot be a sin in and of itself. A sin requires the assent of the will by the person to do something morally wrong. So, for reading the Harry Potter series to be considered a sin one would have to:

a) knowingly consent to to an action that is
b) morally wrong.

So, is reading a book which contains magical elements objectively morally wrong? There's a lot of back and forth here about Harry Potter/Narnia/LoTR and I think some people want to have their cake and eat it too. Namely, you want reading J.K Rowling's book to be a sin whilst somehow exempting Tolkien and Lewis because of their status as Christian authors.

I honestly think it is all or nothing. Either reading ALL literature about witchcraft and sorcery is a sin, or it is not a sin. Exempting certain authors here and there seems, at best, tenuous. Especially if you want to tie it into sin and morality.

[Marvin D.]

Well, Tigerintheshadows,
A sin is technically anything that is wrong...and if HP contains magic, we are filling our minds with something evil, which is sin.

[Termite]

Then technically LotR, Narnia, and, you could even say, Star Wars is wrong.

[TigerintheShadows]

I don't think it's a thing of reading it that is sinful so much as it is "Oh my word, this is SO cool! I'm gonna go out and try it, too!"

Marvin, I think that by your logic, you could also say that reading about the Holocaust, then, is sinful--not only is it about mass murder (defying the sixth commandment), but it's about the mass murder of God's chosen people. It's filling your mind with something evil--so is it a sin?

By that logic, pretty much all novels are sinful--they will inevitably go in depth about something morally wrong, and you've put it in your head, so then it's sinful.

[Anna><>]

Then technically LotR, Narnia, and, you could even say, Star Wars is wrong.

That's what my mom thinks.

[Sherlock]

By that logic, pretty much all novels are sinful--they will inevitably go in depth about something morally wrong, and you've put it in your head, so then it's sinful.

Various Puritan groups did believe this. Hence, the inability to distinguish between a sinful act and a morally neutral act is what leads to problems like blue laws and book burnings. People think that the object itself is sinful so they ban it rather than concerning themselves with intent behind the act of the individual.

[Marvin D.]

Well, then read this interesting article:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/harrypotter.html

[Sherlock]

I read it. The following are quotes from the article and my responses.

While a few Christians don't even like to read or see classics such as Sleeping Beauty, Lord of the Rings, or Chronicles of Narnia due to the mere presence of evil, most Christians recognize the good vs. evil element as being clearly delineated. Evil is evil, and good is good, and good is promoted while evil is not.

But in the Potter series, the line is not so clear. The “good” guys practice “white magic”, while the bad guys practice the “Dark Arts”.

1) Good and evil are present and easily distinguishable in all the books listed.
2) Both Lord of the Rings and Narnia utilise "white" magic through the "good" characters.

Yet somehow, for some Christians, these books are still the exception. Why? Is Gandalf using "white" magic given to him by the false gods of the LoTR universe somehow objectively morally superior to the "white" magic given to Harry Potter by nature (or whatever the source - Rowling doesn't say).

Yet God is clear in Scripture that any practice of magic is an “abomination” to him. God doesn't distinguish between “white” and “dark” magic since they both originate from the same source.

If this claim is true then Christians should not be trying making a distinction between Harry Potter, Narnia or Lord of the Rings as all of these include elements of so-called "white" and "dark" magic and the former is utilised by the protagonists in all examples.

Potter has caused quite a stir in many nations, with several Australian Christian schools supporting a banning of the books.

Again, Puritain reaction based on a misunderstanding of sinfulness as it relates to morally neutral objects.

"The ordinary person is typified as being bad because they have no (magic) power...

Uh, no, they're not. At least not by the protagonists ("good" characters).

Even many non-Christian parents have been concerned due to the greatly heightened fear that their younger children have after reading Potter's books.

This seems almost too obvious to have to say but younger children shouldn't be reading books with any kind of scary elements! Common sense.

The problem is that this article is making an illogical link between the lack of common sense of some parents and the books supposedly being evil.

"[J.K. Rowling] is very accurate (otherwise we would have witches all over the country and the world saying 'this is not a true representation of our religion'.)

While some practicing Wiccans flatly deny any link between Potter's world and theirs...

The author needs to make up their mind. Either wiccans love Harry Potter or they don't! Or, better yet, they don't care.

Potter promotes an interest in magic and the occult.

Narnia promotes an interest in becoming an anthropomorphic deity.
Lord of the Rings promotes an interest in pantheism and new age philosophy.

(Wow, that was easy)

And, because no good article is complete without resort to Godwin's Law:

Some fans mimick this marking by giving themselves a lightning bolt on the forehead. This marking causes some concern, as the lightning bolt, in mythology, is known as Thor's calling card (the god of thunder, rain and fertility), later used by Hitler's Nazi party in the form of two crossing lightning bolts (according to Christine Hall's February 3, 1999 article in ESP Magazine.)

So... how is reading a book sinful again?

[Caswin]

At the risk of getting caught up in this again and spending hours distracted waiting for the next response, I don't even remember any mention of "white magic" in Harry Potter. Unless I'm missing an obscure quote somewhere, it was just "magic", and the distasteful subset known as "The Dark Arts".

[Lord Sesshoumaru]

At the risk of getting caught up in this again and spending hours distracted waiting for the next response, I don't even remember any mention of "white magic" in Harry Potter. Unless I'm missing an obscure quote somewhere, it was just "magic", and the distasteful subset known as "The Dark Arts".

The term "white magic" is in reference to the article listed a few posts above. What they are trying to say by saying "white magic" is that it is the magic the good guys use while black is the one the bad guys use. kinda like the force. you have a light side and a dark side.

I do agree with Sherlock that either all the books should be either all the books are bad or none of them are.

[Marvin D.]

Since when has reading Narnia made you want to become an antropomorpich deity? One man got on TV because his son sacrificed his cat after reading about the death of the unicorn in HP. Not in Narnia!
And also on MSNBC the book sales lady said it was GREAT for younger kids to watch and listen and read HP. Common sense, Sherlock?

[Sherlock]

Since when has reading Narnia made you want to become an antropomorpich deity? One man got on TV because his son sacrificed his cat after reading about the death of the unicorn in HP. Not in Narnia!

Come on, Marvin. There's a girl who surgically modified her body to try to look like a character in Lord of the Rings.
Crazy people are everywhere and using their act of craziness as an example of a possible reaction that everyone might have to reading a book series is silly.

And also on MSNBC the book sales lady said it was GREAT for younger kids to watch and listen and read HP. Common sense, Sherlock?

Again, so what? Use good judgment - very young kids should not be reading extremely violent books of any type. Lord of the Rings isn't appropriate for them either! And neither is Narnia. They all contain scary dark elements that are likely to frighten younger children.

That's what I call common sense.

[Marvin D.]

Narnia has no dark and scary elements, except for Aslan's death, really. Oh, and for LOTR, I have never watched it, and never will. I don't back it up.

[Lord Sesshoumaru]

And also on MSNBC the book sales lady said it was GREAT for younger kids to watch and listen and read HP. Common sense, Sherlock?

One has to remember that just because any one source says something doesn't mean you HAVE to follow it's advice. Like if MSNBC said that everything that's ever been on wikipedia is true, (or false take your pick), then would you believe them? Or how about if they said that jumping off cliffs without anything to save you was good for your health?

Kinda extreme sure but I believe the point is made. Everything is eventually up to the parents to decide if it is safe for their children.

[Sherlock]

Narnia has no dark and scary elements, except for Aslan's death, really.

Marvin, my point is that the arguments you are making about Harry Potter through the article you posted can just as easily be made about Narnia.

(One example: http://www.heavenisopen.com/narnia.html)

Again, I'm just asking for people to be consistent - if you're going to avoid one for the elements that appear in all, then you should avoid them all.

Oh, and for LOTR, I have never watched it, and never will. I don't back it up.

Fair enough.

[jelly]

LotR and Narnia were written by CHRISTIANS, and HP was NOT, therefore it's EVIL.

I think I just summed up the entire it's-wrong-to-read-HP argument.

[Marvin D.]

And I think that's true. Did you ever remember how JK Rowling wrote the HP series? Under demonic influences.

[Caswin]

...well, I tried. I'm getting back into this thing.

One man got on TV because his son sacrificed his cat after reading about the death of the unicorn in HP. Not in Narnia!

I...
...
...
I think I can say with conviction that there was more going on there than a kid reading a fantasy book, because for the life of me, I cannot connect one of those things to the other.

EDIT: It may be unfair to bring this up two years later, but I wanted to add that one of those two series actually involves the ritual murder of a cat, and it isn't Harry Potter.

LotR and Narnia were written by CHRISTIANS, and HP was NOT, therefore it's EVIL.

Um, last I checked, JK Rowling was a professed Christian. If you want to question that, fine, but the same logic would cast similar doubt on the other two.

And I think that's true. Did you ever remember how JK Rowling wrote the HP series? Under demonic influences.

Well, that's news to me. It sounds like the sort of thing you'd want to mention up front. Where would I remember this from?