OBAMA WINS BY A LANDSLIDE

DrummerChick · Post by **DrummerChick** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:56 pm

Wait JED me is confused. We know that it is illegal to murder soemone so why isnt it illegal to do abotion i mena come on they cant put a thing up the stomach and hear te baby going oh just kill me. HAHA NOO not funny. i am sry but if you believe that it is illegal to murder is a good thing then why isnt abrotion. And we cnat stop teens from getting preganant.WE can try to inform them but they are going to make the desicion. therefore if abotion was illegal it might help gives teens that little push that says if you make the mistake you can't legally get rid of the baby therefore they wotn wnat to get prganat and that will help the rate of TP's i think. I am a teen. But this also doesnt just apply to teens. if you are going to try to cut down on TP's then you have to cut down on the unmarried pregananys because they say well i can just get rid of my mistake. And I have talked to ppl that have had abotions and they say that they have so much hurt today that they wihs they would have kept the babies because of all the guilt they feel today and that it hurts more then other ppl knowing they made a mistake.And that is my view on what was said. You cnat just blame the teens for all the abotions. It isnt only them it is older women also.Okay I think I am done.And if no one knows I hate Abortion with a capiltal HATE!!! lol sry had to get some humor in here.

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:00 pm

Darcie wrote:
Jonathan wrote:
JED wrote:my views on a botion?

I think it is wrong and is tantamount to murder however I will not support outlawing it until there is rock hard, pure scientific proof that proves it wrong.

The reason why I say that is because not everybody believes in the Bible but everybody can and have to believe in Science. I refuse to impose my religous beliefs on others.
That last sentence is curious--since when is outlawing murder purely a religious conviction?

Dr. Watson wrote:So for you, criminalizing murder is based on your religious belief. But you just said that you don't force your religious views on others. So you propose doing away with laws against murder?
The thing about that is that I would venture a guess that those who would not believe in the Bible would not necessarily see abortion as murder. While is is obvious that taking life from a living, breathing human being against their will is murder, the line is not clear as to the beginning of life. A Christian will say that life begins upon conception, while someone that may not believe in God or a god may say that "life" is when the fetus is viable outside the body. This differing of opinion is where the divide lies between the pro-choice and pro-life camps.

And that was totally off the original topic, but on the current one?

True. But we're talking to JED, who believes in the Bible, and who believes abortion is murder. We want to know why he's opposed to outlawing murder.

darcie · Post by **darcie** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:49 pm

Because he is opposed to denying people the freedom to decide whether something that is not legally defined as murder is something they wish to have available, if, heaven forbid (tongue in cheek intended

), it is ever needed?

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:59 am

Darcie wrote:Because he is opposed to denying people the freedom to decide whether something that is not legally defined as murder is something they wish to have available, if, heaven forbid (tongue in cheek intended ), it is ever needed?

See, that doesn't explain it to me. He believes it's murder. He doesn't want to see it legally defined as murder. That makes no sense--it seems paradoxical for those two convictions to lie in the same person. So I'm asking him how he reconciles the two.

darcie · Post by **darcie** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:48 am

I have a unique viewpoint of having been raised in a very liberal town by very liberal parents, then becoming a Christian much later. So I understand his viewpoint.

While he himself sees abortion as murder, he realizes that there are many out there that do not. As there is not a unanimous decision in our society about this at this point, he feels giving those the freedom to make that choice is the best option. At the point at which we might come to a definite conclusion about when a fetus can be considered a life that can be murdered, then, I would guess, he would be happy to concede to the decision whatever it may be. Until such a time as a conclusion can be made as to if life begins at conception or should only be considered a true life when the fetus is viable outside the mother, those that are pro-choice would leave the decision of termination to the conscious of those involved instead of wishing the decision to be make by lawmakers who may or may not have any frame of reference for the decision itself.

JED · Post by **JED** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:16 pm

Candy Cane wrote:I have a unique viewpoint of having been raised in a very liberal town by very liberal parents, then becoming a Christian much later. So I understand his viewpoint.

While he himself sees abortion as murder, he realizes that there are many out there that do not. As there is not a unanimous decision in our society about this at this point, he feels giving those the freedom to make that choice is the best option. At the point at which we might come to a definite conclusion about when a fetus can be considered a life that can be murdered, then, I would guess, he would be happy to concede to the decision whatever it may be. Until such a time as a conclusion can be made as to if life begins at conception or should only be considered a true life when the fetus is viable outside the mother, those that are pro-choice would leave the decision of termination to the conscious of those involved instead of wishing the decision to be make by lawmakers who may or may not have any frame of reference for the decision itself.

Yeah that pretty much sums up my belief. Thanks for clearing that up Cane!

I am a Christian but my family happen to be liberals...

Dr. Watson · Post by **Dr. Watson** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 5:14 pm

JED, do you think that God thinks abortion is murder?

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 5:19 pm

Candy Cane wrote:I have a unique viewpoint of having been raised in a very liberal town by very liberal parents, then becoming a Christian much later. So I understand his viewpoint.

While he himself sees abortion as murder, he realizes that there are many out there that do not. As there is not a unanimous decision in our society about this at this point, he feels giving those the freedom to make that choice is the best option.

I understand what you're saying, but I cannot appreciate it. That's relativism. "Well, I think it's wrong, but if it works for you go for it." How can that be reconciled with one's conscience?

The question I posed is simple--if he believes abortion is murder, why doesn't he want to see it legally defined as such?

At the point at which we might come to a definite conclusion about when a fetus can be considered a life that can be murdered, then, I would guess, he would be happy to concede to the decision whatever it may be. Until such a time as a conclusion can be made as to if life begins at conception or should only be considered a true life when the fetus is viable outside the mother, those that are pro-choice would leave the decision of termination to the conscious of those involved instead of wishing the decision to be make by lawmakers who may or may not have any frame of reference for the decision itself.

Couldn't those sentiments be applied to the other side? Who says those lawmakers have any frame of reference for letting abortion remain legal?

If one believes it's murder, I don't see why they want it to remain legal.

JED · Post by **JED** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:12 pm

Smarties wrote:JED, do you think that God thinks abortion is murder?

How many times do I have to tell you? Yes I think it is murder! But I am not going to support legalizing it. Just read the earlier posts in this thread! The one Darcies ( I think) gave was a good point...

Dr. Watson · Post by **Dr. Watson** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:42 pm

JED wrote:
Smarties wrote:JED, do you think that God thinks abortion is murder?

How many times do I have to tell you? Yes I think it is murder! But I am not going to support legalizing it. Just read the earlier posts in this thread! The one Darcies ( I think) gave was a good point...

OK, so if GOD says abortion is murder, then it is murder no matter what society says. Thus, why do you believe society should have the choice of murder?

Danielle Abigail Maxwell · Sun Nov 09, 2008 9:45 pm

And we got onto the topic of Abortion HOW?

Here's my families stand on abortion:
We don't like it. We know what the bible says. BUT we know that that is our stand. Others' stand could be for abortion. Fine, that is their idea, it is ALSO their body. They get to make the choice, not us. We can't judge. We know this, but that is what they choose.

People have choices. It is NOT our choice to force something onto someone. Yes, the Bible says "THOU SHALL NOT MURDER". We all know this. But we are not the ones to force it on someone. We make our own choices. Adam and Eve had a choice. Eat of all trees except that one. Or sin against God and eat of that one tree. They fell. They ate of that one tree. Now we all pay. People have their own choices. If they murder an innocent child, their choice. IT WILL AFFECT OTHERS. But it was STILL their choice. Who are we to condemn others or judge them? Have we not learned that GOD is the only judge of this earth, that he makes the sole decision? Or are we forgetting this?

It is their choice, not ours. Just like gay marriage. Their choice, not ours.

In other news, my grandma voted for Obama. I was mesermerized when I heard this morning she voted for him. She never liked McCain... she did like Palin, but only for what she looked like.. not really what she said or did. In all essence, not the greatest reason for wanting her as a VP or President in any way... oh well... Obama will do what he must. The world isn't ending... thank goodness. It has to someday... does it matter who does it? Retorical question...
I'm good... now... hmm...

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:02 pm

Danielle Abigail Maxwell wrote:If they murder an innocent child, their choice. IT WILL AFFECT OTHERS. But it was STILL their choice. Who are we to condemn others or judge them?

......

Are you actually saying that we can't declare murder as wrong?!?

JED · Post by **JED** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:28 am

Smarties wrote:
JED wrote:
Smarties wrote:JED, do you think that God thinks abortion is murder?

How many times do I have to tell you? Yes I think it is murder! But I am not going to support legalizing it. Just read the earlier posts in this thread! The one Darcies ( I think) gave was a good point...
OK, so if GOD says abortion is murder, then it is murder no matter what society says. Thus, why do you believe society should have the choice of murder?

No I don't think so! For the umpteenth time! But that is my personal opinion and I am not going to try to LEGALIZE my personal opinion!!!!

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:08 am

JED wrote:
Smarties wrote:
JED wrote:
Smarties wrote:JED, do you think that God thinks abortion is murder?

How many times do I have to tell you? Yes I think it is murder! But I am not going to support legalizing it. Just read the earlier posts in this thread! The one Darcies ( I think) gave was a good point...
OK, so if GOD says abortion is murder, then it is murder no matter what society says. Thus, why do you believe society should have the choice of murder?

No I don't think so! For the umpteenth time! But that is my personal opinion and I am not going to try to LEGALIZE my personal opinion!!!!

Ok, yes, we get it, that's your opinion. That's not what we're discussing so quit using that as a cop-out.

He asked you a question. Give a real answer. You think it's murder, God thinks it's murder, why don't you want to see it defined as murder?

JED · Post by **JED** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:11 am

Ice Breaker wrote:
JED wrote:
Smarties wrote:
JED wrote:
Smarties wrote:JED, do you think that God thinks abortion is murder?

How many times do I have to tell you? Yes I think it is murder! But I am not going to support legalizing it. Just read the earlier posts in this thread! The one Darcies ( I think) gave was a good point...
OK, so if GOD says abortion is murder, then it is murder no matter what society says. Thus, why do you believe society should have the choice of murder?

No I don't think so! For the umpteenth time! But that is my personal opinion and I am not going to try to LEGALIZE my personal opinion!!!!
Ok, yes, we get it, that's your opinion. That's not what we're discussing so quit using that as a cop-out.

He asked you a question. Give a real answer. You think it's murder, God thinks it's murder, why don't you want to see it defined as murder?

I am not coping out.

I DO NOT WANT TO SEE IT DEFINED AS MURDER BECAUSE ABORTION BEING MURDER IS MY PERSONAL OPINION.

Besides I am not commiting the abortion the person who participates in abortion is answering to God not me. I will leave his or her punishment for there actions up to Go.

Pseudonym · Post by **Pseudonym** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:21 am

Danielle Abigail Maxwell wrote:Who are we to condemn others or judge them? Have we not learned that GOD is the only judge of this earth, that he makes the sole decision? Or are we forgetting this?

As you said, God is the Judge. He says that murder is wrong.

I don't see how one can even say, "Well, I think that and God says it, but y'know, you can still do it. I won't 'force my beliefs' on anyone." What? Since when do we not "force our beliefs"? Murder being wrong is my personal belief; why don't we legalise that? Some people think there is no right or wrong, so why should we force those poor people to not be able to kill anyone?

I think that you're forcing the belief that we can't force our beliefs. Hm.

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:33 am

Pseudonym wrote:
Danielle Abigail Maxwell wrote:Who are we to condemn others or judge them? Have we not learned that GOD is the only judge of this earth, that he makes the sole decision? Or are we forgetting this?
As you said, God is the Judge. He says that murder is wrong.

I don't see how one can even say, "Well, I think that and God says it, but y'know, you can still do it. I won't 'force my beliefs' on anyone." What? Since when do we not "force our beliefs"? Murder being wrong is my personal belief; why don't we legalise that? Some people think there is no right or wrong, so why should we force those poor people to not be able to kill anyone?

I think that you're forcing the belief that we can't force our beliefs. Hm.

And that is the root of the problem--those advocating such a position are guilty of relativism.

JED · Post by **JED** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:35 am

Ice Breaker wrote:
Pseudonym wrote:
Danielle Abigail Maxwell wrote:Who are we to condemn others or judge them? Have we not learned that GOD is the only judge of this earth, that he makes the sole decision? Or are we forgetting this?
As you said, God is the Judge. He says that murder is wrong.

I don't see how one can even say, "Well, I think that and God says it, but y'know, you can still do it. I won't 'force my beliefs' on anyone." What? Since when do we not "force our beliefs"? Murder being wrong is my personal belief; why don't we legalise that? Some people think there is no right or wrong, so why should we force those poor people to not be able to kill anyone?

I think that you're forcing the belief that we can't force our beliefs. Hm.
And that is the root of the problem--those advocating such a position are guilty of relativism.

'

and why is that? How would you feel that a Muslim thought that eating meat was wrong because it was "murder" and there God said it was murder therefore they outlawed eating meat for everyone?

Commiting a sin is between you and God not between you, the law, your neighbor, AND God...

Guess Who! · Post by **Guess Who!** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:39 am

Do you (JED, DAM, any others who advocate the "abortion is murder" but "It's personal choice" argument) see a difference between "murder" in regards to abortion and "murder" in regards to say, a 20 year old mentally competent adult? Is there more than one kind of murder for you? Or do you believe all murder needs to be allowed, as "personal choice"? If there is somewhat of a difference between "murder" in the case of abortion and "murder" as commonly understood in the legal definitions of the USA, could you outline the exact differences of the two categories?

I do admit the position is somewhat confusing.

hubcap · Post by **hubcap** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:05 am

Guess Who! wrote:Do you (JED, DAM, any others who advocate the "abortion is murder" but "It's personal choice" argument) see a difference between "murder" in regards to abortion and "murder" in regards to say, a 20 year old mentally competent adult? Is there more than one kind of murder for you? Or do you believe all murder needs to be allowed, as "personal choice"? If there is somewhat of a difference between "murder" in the case of abortion and "murder" as commonly understood in the legal definitions of the USA, could you outline the exact differences of the two categories?

I do admit the position is somewhat confusing.

Thank you, Guess Who!.

Murder is murder is murder is murder. Murder is a sin. That is NOT a personal opinion. That comes straight from the Bible. In fact, because it seems some people here have forgotten, I will quote it for you:

Exodus 20:13 KJV wrote:Thou shalt not kill.

As far as I can tell that doesn't exclude babies and mentally ill people. And anyone else. The Bible doesn't say that it is a personal opinion, either.

So. Are you in or are you out?