The Town of Odyssey

Are you saying Christ died for demons? You're the one who would need to provide references to prove that point.

So we can do anything we want if we believe that Jesus died for our sins?

I didn't say that. If you go out and live a life that is antithetical to Christ then you clearly didn't have true insight when you said you did. But if you did have true insight when you believed then you will never lose salvation; once saved always saved.

What your saying is that all that is necessary for salvation is to have true insight that Jesus died for our sins at one time in our life. You said nothing that anyone can do can affect my salvation before or after that. So after I have "true insight" I can do whatever I want.

If you had true insight then you are saved forever. You wouldn't go out and murder someone the next day if you did truly have true insight. If you did go out and murder someone the next day then you clearly didn't have true insight. But how else would you be saved? I mean haven't you ever prayed the sinners prayer?

No I don't believe the sinners prayer will save anyone. The only way to salvation is through baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And then living a holy life. What I am getting from you is that if someone had "true insight" (which is a very ambiguous term) then it didn't necessarily matter what they did after that.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved, that is what Scripture says. As my signature says "Whoever finds the meaning of these words will not taste death." This idea of works based salvation, i.e. living a holy life is just wrong. I am saying that what we physically do here on earth doesn't matter, we are after all spiritual beings and this world is but a passing thing.

Aknowledging something or "having true insight" is a physical thing so therefore it is worthless. Then what about all the times Jesus referenced baptism. Including: Matthew 28:19, 20, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38,

How is it physical? It is intellectual and true insight comes from our spirit not our body. Yes, Jesus referenced baptism, but what about the thief on the Cross? Was he baptized? According to you he didn't go to heaven because all he "did" was believe Christ. He wasn't baptized, he literally could do nothing physical, he didn't live a holy life.

Intellectual is with our mind and our mind in physical. Baptism is the way of Christ saying come into my church and enjoy new life in me... Jesus said that to the thief on the cross. If baptism didn't matter Jesus wouldn't have said

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

Emphasis added.

And
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”

There is more to intellect than just a physical brain, animals have physical brains but they don't have intellect. So why did Jesus tell the thief he would be in paradise? The thief clearly wasn't baptized, so does that mean he didn't go to paradise? Also what about all the people in the Old Testament, none of them were baptized.

Notice that he that believeth not shall be damned, you can be baptized and be damned, it is belief/insight that is key.

Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. CCC p 1257

The thief did not have the chance to receive baptism because he was dying. Also baptism isn't only for salvation, t is also for the forgiveness of all sin, forgive temporal punishment for sins, and the infusion of supernatural graces and virtues. Also Jesus said clearly that baptism is necessary for salvation.

Does John 3:6 say "Unless they were dying and couldn't receive baptism"? If not then it seems like, according to your interpretation, that Christ is contradicting Himself.

You have to decide that for yourself. Jesus clearly said that and he said that the thief would be in heaven with him. So it isn't my place to say why. when Christ said that the thief would be with him in heaven, it was a form of baptism. You have no proof that "true insight" is the way to salvation.

I have just as much proof as you do that Jesus saying that was a form of baptism. If anything His saying it is more in line with my theology, the ultimate example of Baptism that we have from Christ Himself was completely non-physical. The thief had the ultimate insight, this man dying next to Him on the Cross was truly the Son of God, and because of that insight he was saved.

He was not saved because of his insight. Belief and confession of Christ are necessary for salvation but these come along with Baptism. Baptism can also happen through blood, or desire. Baptism of blood is baptism by dying for the faith even if you were not baptized dying for Jesus counts as baptism. Baptism by desire is for those who do not have the opportunity or knowledge of baptism to be baptized. The baptism applies to all the OT people and the thief on the cross. If you would like a little bit more in depth on these certain topics go here http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articl ... -saves-you

In two out of the three examples of baptism you gave the actual physical act of baptism is not required. The article you linked to said "It may also apply to those who have faith in Christ, but have not been baptized because they truly and sincerely (because of false teaching received in goodwill) do not believe that baptism is necessary." You continue to make a case against yourself, it seems like there is no hard and fast rule about this as you seem to be claiming.

I liked it when this thread was about cupcakes.

That was awhile ago but yes, most threads should involve more cupcakes

Jelly wrote:I liked it when this thread was about cupcakes.

I was thinking the same thing.