Re: Harry Potter
Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:58 pm
I agree. The White Witch is portrayed as Satan, but Harry Potter uses witchcraft!
agreed. and people who actually practice the occult don't buy wands and say silly Latin words! Harry Potter takes place in an entirely different world, which is invisible to the non magic people, and no there wouldn't be a story without magic, but what I'm saying is that there is so much more to Harry Potter than just the fantasy element of magic; there's good vs. evil, bravery, friendship, loyalty, the growth and development of characters, interesting and funny plotlines and so much depth and an amazing story that is further enhanced by excellent writing.Caswin wrote:(Sorry, I've been busy.) I know I've said this before, but it bears stressing: The characters use magic. If they never mentioned the word "witch" -- which is more of a semantic thing; according to Darcie, it's a word for "a woman who uses magic" in Britain -- there would be nothing in the actual content to suggest it was any worse than your average work of fantasy.
Unless you can disprove this Bible verse, there is no response. Do not use, "But you guys!! Lord of the Rings is no different!!@!" That doesn't work. Go by the Bible, and live it. Don't compare evil to a worse evil.Trixie Belden wrote:Deuteronomy 18:10 says:Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft.
It works (!!@!) if you don't consider Lord of the Rings to be an evil book of witchcraft and sinfulness. "Look. You all know that the Lord of the Rings books use witchcraft and other such things the Bible condemns" would have been equally accurate, although if you do consider it merely a lesser evil for the same reasons, then that's a different playing field, in which case I'll admit I don't have a ready answer. (That said, claiming there is "no response" to be made if your opponent can't disprove a verse from the Bible is quite a leap.)American Eagle wrote:Do not use, "But you guys!! Lord of the Rings is no different!!@!" That doesn't work.
Didn't Jesus fulfill that? If we hold ourselves to the standards of Deuteronomy, most members of this board are probably offending God by eating cheeseburgers.American Eagle wrote:Deuteronomy 18:10 says:Unless you can disprove this Bible verse, there is no response.Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft.
Have I once said LOTR is okay? Show me that post. I have never read the books, and am undecided on the films. I have not once said they are acceptable, though. It works? I don't only mean in debating; I mean it doesn't make it right.Caswin wrote:It works (!!@!) if you don't consider Lord of the Rings to be an evil book of witchcraft and sinfulness. "Look. You all know that the Lord of the Rings books use witchcraft and other such things the Bible condemns" would be an equally apt statement, although if you do consider it merely a lesser evil for the same reasons, then that's a different playing field, in which case I'll admit I don't have a ready answer.American Eagle wrote:Do not use, "But you guys!! Lord of the Rings is no different!!@!" That doesn't work.
No. The principles of the OT aren't thrown out the window. Many of the traditions (clothing, festivals, sacrifices, etc.) are specifically for the Jews alone, but that is not an excuse to disregard the other commands the Bible gives. (Under that reasoning, it's okay to steal, lie, worship idols, etc., because the Ten Commandments were in the OT.) I disagree.Caswin wrote:Although, since you brought it up...Didn't Jesus fulfill that? If we hold ourselves to the standards of Deuteronomy, most members of this board are probably offending God by eating cheeseburgers.American Eagle wrote:Deuteronomy 18:10 says:Unless you can disprove this Bible verse, there is no response.Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft.
I think I have this covered.American Eagle wrote:Have I once said LOTR is okay? Show me that post. I have never read the books, and am undecided on the films. I have not once said they are acceptable, though.
Most other Christians I have met, whatever their opinion on Harry Potter or other controversial subjects, have been fine with the magic in Lord of the Rings, The Wizard of Oz or The Chronicles of Narnia. (I always did like Doctor Cornelius.) Presumably, they -- or we, to include myself -- don't believe it constitutes the "witchcraft" condemned by the Bible. If we can't work from that, then I'll admit (again) that I don't have an answer handy.Caswin wrote:...then that's a different playing field, in which case I'll admit I don't have a ready answer.
Far from it -- you were the one who brought up "disproving" Bible verses as the only means to counter your arguments in the first place. The question is whether or not they apply.American Eagle wrote:If you want to try to discredit those verses, feel free.
I understand. Comparison of the different films is a discussion for another thread, though.Caswin wrote:I think I have this covered.American Eagle wrote:Have I once said LOTR is okay? Show me that post. I have never read the books, and am undecided on the films. I have not once said they are acceptable, though.Most other Christians I have met, whatever their opinion on Harry Potter or other controversial subjects, have been fine with the magic in Lord of the Rings, The Wizard of Oz or The Chronicles of Narnia. (I always did like Doctor Cornelius.) Presumably, they -- or we, to include myself -- don't believe it constitutes the "witchcraft" condemned by the Bible. If we can't work from that, then I'll admit (again) that I don't have an answer handy.Caswin wrote:...then that's a different playing field, in which case I'll admit I don't have a ready answer.
Oh, I chose the wrong word. The Bible can never be disproved, but I meant prove that those verses don't apply.Caswin wrote:Far from it -- you were the one who brought up "disproving" Bible verses as the only means to counter your arguments in the first place. The question is whether or not they apply.American Eagle wrote:If you want to try to discredit those verses, feel free.
With the caveat that the lessons in the series are beside the point, I would say that the "witchcraft" in Harry Potter is as worthy of rebuke as the magic in all of the other fantasy series that have been brought into this debate (mostly by me). Since I don't think that was what the Bible was getting at, I can't say as I do.American Eagle wrote:Caswin, you can read the verses, and it is obvious what God is referring to: witchcraft, devils, wizards and enchantments (see the verses I quoted). God hates witchcraft, including the witchcraft shown and glorified (used by the "good guys") in the Harry Potter series. No amount of life lessons (bravery, courage, selflessness, etc.) can diminish this. Do you agree?
There's no real such thing as "worse evil;" all evil is evil. There's not a real shade of gray--it's just evil.American Eagle wrote:Look. You all know that the Harry Potter series uses witchcraft and other such things the Bible condemns. I'm going to quote Trixie:Unless you can disprove this Bible verse, there is no response. Do not use, "But you guys!! Lord of the Rings is no different!!@!" That doesn't work. Go by the Bible, and live it. Don't compare evil to a worse evil.Trixie Belden wrote:Deuteronomy 18:10 says:Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft.
Oh AE must I drag out the Leviticus verses again? >_> That verse is 1. in the law, and 2. if you follow the law you much follow all the law. Therefore, do you wear clothing with two different types of stitches in it?American Eagle wrote:Look. You all know that the Harry Potter series uses witchcraft and other such things the Bible condemns. I'm going to quote Trixie:Unless you can disprove this Bible verse, there is no response. Do not use, "But you guys!! Lord of the Rings is no different!!@!" That doesn't work. Go by the Bible, and live it. Don't compare evil to a worse evil.Trixie Belden wrote:Deuteronomy 18:10 says:Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft.
I'd planned to leave this discussion altogether, but since you seemingly ignored what I posted right after that, here you are:jasonjannajerryjohn wrote:Oh AE must I drag out the Leviticus verses again? >_> That verse is 1. in the law, and 2. if you follow the law you much follow all the law. Therefore, do you wear clothing with two different types of stitches in it?American Eagle wrote:Look. You all know that the Harry Potter series uses witchcraft and other such things the Bible condemns. I'm going to quote Trixie:Unless you can disprove this Bible verse, there is no response. Do not use, "But you guys!! Lord of the Rings is no different!!@!" That doesn't work. Go by the Bible, and live it. Don't compare evil to a worse evil.Trixie Belden wrote:Deuteronomy 18:10 says:Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft.
American Eagle wrote:Let's not get that off-topic. You want a NT verse? Try 1 Timothy 4:1: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" Not good enough? I'll try a OT verse that isn't related to OT law. 2 Chronicles 33:6: "[Manasseh] observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger." Is this talking about a covenant with Isreal? No; it says those things provoked the LORD to anger.
Quoted for truth.TigerintheShadows wrote:There's no real such thing as "worse evil;" all evil is evil. There's not a real shade of gray--it's just evil.American Eagle wrote:Look. You all know that the Harry Potter series uses witchcraft and other such things the Bible condemns. I'm going to quote Trixie:Unless you can disprove this Bible verse, there is no response. Do not use, "But you guys!! Lord of the Rings is no different!!@!" That doesn't work. Go by the Bible, and live it. Don't compare evil to a worse evil.Trixie Belden wrote:Deuteronomy 18:10 says:Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft.
And I guess my point was just ignored...
I'm not going to argue with anyone's moral standards, nor am I going to state that there's any way to disprove the Bible--mostly because there isn't. As Bernard states in Bernard and Jeremiah, "If God says something, you need to believe it, know it, and preach it." God said everything in the Bible (according to 2 Timothy 3:16), so it's not like there's room for debate.
There's a difference, though, between reading something and completely regarding it as fictional and nothing else (which is, really, what most--if not all--people do with HP) and reading something and believing it to be true. To me, the witchcraft is indeed sinful, as are a few of the other things done in the books (some of which, such as alcohol comsumption, are acceptable British customs, which qualify because the books are set there). However, I think that as long as a) your parents let you and b) you don't let it go to your head, they're okay to read.