The Town of Odyssey

Guess Who! wrote:Actually I feel like I manage grieving better now that I'm an atheist than when I was a Christian... but that could be just time and experience and perspective rather than beliefs per se, I don't know.

Oh yeah, I certainly deal with it better now, I just had to relearn how to do it.

Pretty much ditto to everything JJJJ said above.

Ayn Rand wrote:Did any of you consider or explore other religions besides Christianity?

Once I was done with Christianity I was DONE with organized religion, completely. Disorganized religion... now that's *quite* a different fish.


But really, I've read a LOT about the religions of the world that practitioners take *seriously* so I know quite a bit about the standard competitors to Christianity... but the only alternatives I ever actually *personally* explored in any fashion, were the types of things like Discordianism, Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, Church of Google, Invisible Pink Unicorn, Thee Temple ov Psychick Youth, Church of the Subgenius, Jediism, (I won't really get into here which ones of these I really liked vs. the ones which didn't really appeal). Pretty much they are jokes which occasionally have moments of lucidity, which are fun, and which, if stressed, can give a relaxing kind of crazy-ritual to take one's mind off of the seriousness for a moment and gain a bit of perspective.

Just based on some of the previous comments, would you tend to conclude that faith-based religious beliefs tend to hamper individual perception or understanding of reality?

Edit: Just thought of another. What is your opinion on rituals in general? Do they have any benefit outside of specific religious practice? (E.g. prayer, meditation, fasting/self-deprivation).

Sherlock wrote:Just based on some of the previous comments, would you tend to conclude that faith-based religious beliefs tend to hamper individual perception or understanding of reality?

certain faith based religious beliefs *alter* perceptions and understandings of reality. Such as in this fascinating study: http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/201 ... cture.html

I certainly wouldn't say they *hamper* them across the board, though I think in some areas and some belief systems, you could say certain modes of perception are hampered. The human brain and perception is VERY complex though, so I don't think you could simplistically say one way or the other-- even if some ways of thinking are suppressed, sometimes others are enhanced.

Sherlock wrote:Edit: Just thought of another. What is your opinion on rituals in general? Do they have any benefit outside of specific religious practice? (E.g. prayer, meditation, fasting/self-deprivation).

Oooh good question! I really really like rituals as a general principle. I think they can have a major place in helping to calm people down, helping to place people in community, helping to instill a feeling of permanence amid intransigence, etc. Unfortunately, due to various experiences with my ex-church quite apart from actual belief issues, I no longer feel at all comfortable with group rituals of any kind, but I'll do various solo things like meditation on my own. Fasting/self-deprivation I don't really see the value in but I can see why others might.

I'll say this: ritual has *TREMENDOUS* power. It can be used for good and for evil, and you have to be really careful with it, because you can *really* hurt people with them. Rituals can exclude and harm very easily, and they can also include and help heal people, too. I wish more churches would be really careful with how the ritualistic aspects of their worship affect people psychologically-- it can be a dangerous thing to whip up people's emotions in the presence of a powerful individual personality, for example, which, in my experience, was what a lot of "revivalist" gatherings really were.

So to summarize: the human brain is really complicated, psychologically ritual can affect it a lot, even if the action isn't actually *called* ritualistic, and I wish people would be a LOT more careful in the rituals they choose to participate in.

Thanks for the reply!

The reason I asked the ritual question is that it really taps into a lot of human psychology that we all experience, and it isn't necessarily religious. I'd say we all have *some* form of rituals we perform, which give us some structure and perhaps give us a feeling of security and continuity. To some extent, I would say that human beings thrive on ritual, the sense of participating in something routinely as a group for a perceived greater end. But the term itself immediately brings to mind religious ritual, which is understandable.

On the issue of fasting/self-deprivation, I ask because it's something that's embraced by a lot of major religions and has been around for a really long time. In many cases, it arises from both the belief that fasting "clears the mind" and allows for greater focus on God/the Universe/others, etc. Some also believe that, by denying certain bodily pleasures (food, sex, alcohol, etc) we build character and learn to overcome our own selfish desires for some perceived greater good. Either way fasting and self-deprivation are unique in a way because they run contrary to our naturally narcissistic instincts to seek pleasure and avoid pain.

As an atheist, do you think there could be a legitimate value for an atheist/agnostic to practice some form of fasting or self-deprivation? Do you think there is any sort of objective value in denying our desires, or is it best understood solely in a religious context?

Sherlock wrote:Thanks for the reply!

The reason I asked the ritual question is that it really taps into a lot of human psychology that we all experience, and it isn't necessarily religious. I'd say we all have *some* form of rituals we perform, which give us some structure and perhaps give us a feeling of security and continuity. To some extent, I would say that human beings thrive on ritual, the sense of participating in something routinely as a group for a perceived greater end. But the term itself immediately brings to mind religious ritual, which is understandable.

On the issue of fasting/self-deprivation, I ask because it's something that's embraced by a lot of major religions and has been around for a really long time. In many cases, it arises from both the belief that fasting "clears the mind" and allows for greater focus on God/the Universe/others, etc. Some also believe that, by denying certain bodily pleasures (food, sex, alcohol, etc) we build character and learn to overcome our own selfish desires for some perceived greater good. Either way fasting and self-deprivation are unique in a way because they run contrary to our naturally narcissistic instincts to seek pleasure and avoid pain.

As an atheist, do you think there could be a legitimate value for an atheist/agnostic to practice some form of fasting or self-deprivation? Do you think there is any sort of objective value in denying our desires, or is it best understood solely in a religious context?

I think that fasting/ self deprivation may change the structure of your thoughts similar to ways that sleep deprivation, or alcohol etc. might, and that if you are confused by something and cycle through any one, couple, or several of those altered states, it may be possible to get a little perspective and find out which of your thoughts, priorities, and values survive examination from several different ways of thinking vs. which ones you might have gotten stuck in a rut on.

Additionally, a strict schedule or perhaps cutting off for a time various pleasures that had been taking up a lot of time, we can, as you say, build self-control and work towards a greater aim.

HOWEVER, I kind of don't really consider this "denying our desires." Any person always has conflicting desires, this article explains in the particular case of time-inconsistent preferences: http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/10/27/procrastination/

Everything we choose limits us from doing it's alternatives... and ultimately, what we want *most* is going to be what we choose, what we really wanted, our "actual desire" as it were, even if that "desire" isn't of the most commonly accepted hedonistic ones.

On overpopulation, which was a topic earlier in this thread, before I answer the other questions:



Excellent questions, for sure.

Sherlock wrote:Just based on some of the previous comments, would you tend to conclude that faith-based religious beliefs tend to hamper individual perception or understanding of reality?

This is going to be an unpopular opinion even with my two cohorts in this thread here for a variety of interesting reasons that would make an interesting discussion in its own right.

But the answer to your question is yes. Religious beliefs do hamper perception of reality, and I will answer why. When you have a belief that you want to believe so badly that you try to make everything else around you fit that belief, that's going to hamper your perception of reality. It is not just the fundamentalists that we're all familiar with who do this, although they're the most loud about it. Say you take the belief that prayer actually does something in your life. Now when something good happens to you, like say you are healed in a hospital, you are likely to say "Yes! Praise God! Prayer really works!" That is because you have this belief that prayer is a real thing that actually causes things to happen if you ask god enough. However that is not the case. Prayer did not cure you, the doctors did. Thousands of years of medical science and technology did. Medical school did. So you don't acknowledge reality.

Take a belief that people don't really believe anymore, belief in Zeus. And I apologize if I offend anyone on here who follows ancient Greek religion, but there's probably not going to be anyone on here who does. So anyway, say you believe in Zeus. And you believe that Zeus throws thunderbolts. When you're confronted with the way lighting actually works, you're going to twist that around to try to make it fit with your belief. Or you're just going to ignore the facts on the way lighting works entirely.

In the same way, we have people who ignore or twist evolution around to fit their own beliefs because they simply don't want to give up their belief in a literal six day creation and a young earth regardless of the facts.

Bottom line, religious beliefs have a very unique way of sticking that you don't generally find in anything else. Political beliefs have it, but to a much lesser extent than religious beliefs. This is a very interesting discussion, why do religious beliefs behave this way, but I'm going to stop right there because this answer would be twice or even three times longer than it already is.

Sherlock wrote:Edit: Just thought of another. What is your opinion on rituals in general? Do they have any benefit outside of specific religious practice? (E.g. prayer, meditation, fasting/self-deprivation).

Rituals are not necessarily a bad thing. They do have benefits outside of religious practice, like calming nerves or taking part in something everyone else is doing, that in group togetherness. Non-religious people take part in rituals all the time like brushing your teeth or taking a shower. Ritual cleanliness anyone?

However, the problem comes when you actually believe those rituals hold some power over your life. When you think that thing you're doing is going to make god give you stuff or you're going to escape the real world with meditation or you think that dance you're doing is going to keep it from raining or other such religious beliefs. When you think that, that's where the religious beliefs come in and that's where we end up back up at the top answer where we started.

Guess Who! wrote:I think that fasting/ self deprivation may change the structure of your thoughts similar to ways that sleep deprivation, or alcohol etc. might, and that if you are confused by something and cycle through any one, couple, or several of those altered states, it may be possible to get a little perspective and find out which of your thoughts, priorities, and values survive examination from several different ways of thinking vs. which ones you might have gotten stuck in a rut on.

Also, I would be curious to see if there is any research comparing fasting/self deprivation of food/sex/whatever with lack of sleep, alcohol, or drugs. Would be interesting to see the differences in how these different activities affect the brain.

What do your base your morality on? As in when you are trying to decide if something is moral or not, what do you consider?

What do yous say about things that have no explanation? Things that even the best of doctors and scientist cannot explain?

How could a perfect film like Marvel's The Avengers exist if there is no God? I realize the director is an atheist, but clearly God was working through him. Humans could not make such an incredible film without divine inspiration.

Moontide wrote:What do your base your morality on? As in when you are trying to decide if something is moral or not, what do you consider?

Well when formulating a morality, you have to decide what is most important in your morality and than make judgement calls as to whether something is moral based on what you decided to be most important. This is how people formulate their morality, usually unconsciously.

For example, most of us believe that human life and freedom is the most important thing. That is, of course, because we're all human and thus we're all a bit biased towards humanity.

Jehoshaphat wrote:What do yous say about things that have no explanation? Things that even the best of doctors and scientist cannot explain?

Just because we don't have an explanation for something right now doesn't mean that we'll never have an explanation. Don't forget the famous quote:

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

For example, thousands of years ago we may not have known exactly how the sun worked and thus we had sun gods, but we now know how it works. Well, that's also "God of the Gaps," but it's the same idea.

The Top Crusader wrote:How could a perfect film like Marvel's The Avengers exist if there is no God? I realize the director is an atheist, but clearly God was working through him. Humans could not make such an incredible film without divine inspiration.

Indeed. I guess there must be a God than. I've been wrong this whole time. There's no way such a film could be created by humans alone.

jasonjannajerryjohn wrote:
For example, most of us believe that human life and freedom is the most important thing. That is, of course, because we're all human and thus we're all a bit biased towards humanity.

And what about freedom? Why do most of us believe that freedom is important?