The Town of Odyssey

Yeah, you have verses like "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" but it also talks about the dead in Christ rising first and restless souls, etc. The first verse there could just mean your soul isn't consciously sitting in a coffin for hundreds of years, you basically are asleep, then in heaven.

But again there is evidence that goes both ways, I'm just saying.

Tyler Durden wrote:The Bible speaks in metaphorical symbolism alll the time (especially in the book of Revelation). It's when we try to take things literally that we end up putting God in a box that we can comprehend with our minds.

Obviously, Heaven will have things entirely beyond our current comprehension, such as new colors, feelings and sights, the nonexistence of time, etc. However, that doesn't mean Heaven shouldn't be taken seriously. When God says, "It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels... The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia." Those sound like physical measurements to me, not spiritual. Many (if not most) portions of Revelation are abstract, but there's no indication whatsoever that suggests a non-literal Heaven.

Whoever said we weren't taking Heaven seriously? Heaven is the most exciting thing I can think of! The selling point of Heaven, though, is a state of eternal existence in the raw presence of God himself. This is entirely beyond any comprehension, as God is entirely beyond any comprehension. In God's presence, all is perfect. That, along with the none-existence of time, are both attributes of the Spiritual realm. When the end comes, the limitations of the physical will fall away, and we'll find ourselves bestowed with unimaginable transcendence. To commit an image of a 'bright and colorful' heaven to mind is, I believe, a vastly underwhelming idea of what true transcendence will be all about! Revelation is indeed abstract and metaphorical, including the 'literal' descriptions of Heaven's proportions. If I understand there are no physical laws of time, gravity, etc.. I find it hard to picture limited dimensions of physical space. It doesn't make sense to me.

Tyler Durden wrote:Whoever said we weren't taking Heaven seriously?

You did! I never put words into peoples' mouths.

I think the reason I chose to play devil's advocate in this case was to defend against the "Bible is just a metaphor" attitude you seem to have. I was preprared to join the "Close-mindedness" debate before JCJG proved that he can hold his own. Yes, it includes symbolism and poetry, but the Bible is so much more than that! If God said that he created the earth in six days, we are fools to try to redefine the term "day" to fit our human whims. If God claims to have truly flooded the entire earth, good grief, I think we ought to believe that God did as He said. I hate this new-age-y thinking that everything needs to be vague and undogmatic.

Indeed, a six-day creation, the flood, Jonah literally in a fish, a physical Heaven, etc., should not be the basis of our faith, but it is easy to undermine truth when reality can be considered an illusion or metaphor. (E.g., what if sin isn't sin, but merely a negative state of mind?)

So in essense, Jelly, I agree with you that we shouldn't confine Heaven to our imagination, but that doesn't mean we need to uproot all Christian dogma.

I find it hard to picture limited dimensions of physical space. It doesn't make sense to me.

The Incarnation is hard to understand in physical terms yet it happened. Christ was incarnate in the womb of Mary which became a temple and held God and Man; physically. This focus on the spiritual to me ignores the importance of the physical.

Tyler Durden wrote:I ultimately believe in God's Kingdom on earth, and in my mind that looks like a sort of union between the physical and the spiritual. For this time the spiritual is invisible to us; there comes a time when our eyes will be opened.

As for the immediate afterlife -- what happens to you right after you die -- I think I agree with Moontide. A state of waiting (the restless souls under the alter from Revelation?) until final justice is delivered and God's Kingdom is established on earth.

Isn't that sort of like purgatory for the Catholic only that you couldn't pray them out? I'm not sure if I even got the idea of purgatory right but I do know the Catholics believe it is a waiting place for the soul which is what you where suggesting right?

All of these is beyond our finite minds because eternity and the afterlife is infinite. All I know is that I do believe in an alternative to an afterlife with Christ and I do not care when or how we end up being with Christ, all I know is it sure beats heck and I'm not going to spend took much time worrying about what's going to happen after I die because I have my life now to worry about what I am doing so I can be prepared for the afterlife.

Personally, I do not believe one can die and go to heaven and then come back. I think that these people dreamed it. My grandma once thought that she had gone to heaven and come back, but I think she dreamed that. I believe that death is like a sleep and that the person knows nothing until they wake up when Jesus comes.