The God Debate

Thursday Next · Post by **Thursday Next** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:52 pm

Tomorrow night at 8 pm EST on your local Moody radio station there will be a debate between two Oxford professors over the existence of God. If you have Facebook I have an event up for it. http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=20819575719

If you can't listen to it live it will be available after 10 pm at www.fixed-point.org

Samwise · Post by **Samwise** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:44 am

Debate? What's to debate about?

I wonder if Lennox will defend the faith from the basis of scripture or try to use "science" to defend his beliefs.

1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Thursday Next · Post by **Thursday Next** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:15 am

Considering what Richard Dawkins is saying on the subject there is something to debate about.

He has written numerous best-sellers, most notable among them, his recent book, The God Delusion. TGD has been on The New York Times List of Best-Sellers for over thirty weeks. It is a no-holds-barred assault on religious faith generally, and Christianity specifically. According to Dawkins, one can deduce atheism from scientific study; indeed, he argues that it is the only viable choice.

From Moody Bible Institute's website

The Top Crusader · Post by **The Top Crusader** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:34 am

I doubt I'll get to hear it, but it could certainly be interesting.

I hope the pro-God dude does a good job. My one Bible professor in school... he was a really nice guy, and taught me a lot, but if you asked him, "Well how do you prove to an athiest that God exists?" He's just start quoting scripture, like the one Samwise posted, about a man being a fool if he doesn't believe in God, etc... and while that's true, I was always thinking, "Well, okay, but if he's an athiest I don't think quoting the Bible at him is going to refute his arguments, if he totally doesn't believe the Bible is true."

Clodius Albinus · Post by **Clodius Albinus** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:58 pm

Such debates are always difficult, as if you could prove the existence of God, the matter would be more or less settled by now, and faith wouldn't have to enter the picture. Now, how much the theist invokes science, I can't say, but unless he's talking about science, reason, logic and the like, he's just making a fool of himself, and I doubt he intends to do that. Pace Samwise, it seems rather silly to try convincing atheists, agnostics and doubters of the existence of God by citing a Book whose authority is predicated on the presupposition of His existence.

Thursday Next · Post by **Thursday Next** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:03 pm

The Top Crusader wrote:I doubt I'll get to hear it, but it could certainly be interesting.

I hope the pro-God dude does a good job. My one Bible professor in school... he was a really nice guy, and taught me a lot, but if you asked him, "Well how do you prove to an athiest that God exists?" He's just start quoting scripture, like the one Samwise posted, about a man being a fool if he doesn't believe in God, etc... and while that's true, I was always thinking, "Well, okay, but if he's an athiest I don't think quoting the Bible at him is going to refute his arguments, if he totally doesn't believe the Bible is true."

If you don't get to hear it live it will be available for download afterwards which is what I'm probably going to have to do.

Samwise · Post by **Samwise** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:29 am

My statement came out rather vague. I did not mean that he should go about preaching from the Bible in the debate. What I meant to say was that if Lennox starts from reason and logic as the foundation of his debate, then he has lost already.

Why? Because reason and logic are determined or preconditioned before hand by the individuals worldview. Dawkins will claim to use reason, logic, and science but his reason, logic, and science, are inherently different from the Christian's reason, logic, and science. A Christian will start from the start with the presupposition that God exists and even his reasoning will stand upon that precondition. Likewise the atheist.

Claiming that science can be used as middle-ground or a "grey-zone" is nonsense.

Clodius Albinus · Post by **Clodius Albinus** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:01 am

If reason, logic and science are different than Christian reason, logic and science, then what's wrong with us? This may come as news to you, but they're supposed to be the same. If this guy tries to argue from the existence of God by presupposing the existence of God, you're right that he'll lose. Of course, I doubt he's that stupid. I also doubt he subscribes to the ridiculous opinion, seemingly held only by staunch atheists and extremely anti-intellectual Christians, that reason, science and logic are biased against theism.

I happen to think that, despite the fall, God's creation is still good, and that He created a well-ordered universe and people with the faculty of reason, meaning that, to use a cliched phrase, all truth is God's truth, and we ought not shrink from it. If a Christian has problems with science and reason -- not, I emphasize, what science appears to tell us about origins, as compelling as I believe the evidence to be, but rather all of science and the use of reason -- something has gone terribly wrong, and he believes in a rather powerless, ineffective god who has very little in common with the God of the Bible.