The Emerging Church

[Sherlock]

I've heard Fr. Joseph Fessio state that Pope Benedict XVI has in his desk the decree that will permit each Catholic church to decide of its own accord, without soliciting the permission of the diocese, whether or not to hold a Tridentine mass. Whether many individual churches would change their missals, I do not know; sadly, I doubt there's a large audience for it. For the sake of tradition, though, I hope the practice grows. (I had intended to attend a Tridentine mass with a number of friends this spring, but it never worked out. I shall have to do so at some point, however.)

Indeed. For many, the motu proprio will mark the end of the indult system, which you described. For many, this is an unacceptable compromse as an "indult" is similar if not synonymous with "apology". In other words, under the current schema, one must, in effect, plead apology in order to celebrate in the Tridentine rite.

Interestingly enough, though, interest seems high. Though it is difficult to locate a traditional services, the ones that still exist are quite heavily attended which, I would hope, attests at least in part to a desire to return to the old liturgy.

Finally, I appreciate the distinctions between the 'emerging church' and the modern charismatic movement as I was not aware of the finer points of distinction. Nevertheless, they do occupy, in some sense, the same "sphere" of modernism which I am confident we can agree has been troublesome for the church in recent years.

[Conniepaw]

While I won't dispute that there's something to be gained by learning more about practically anything, I fail to see how becoming better informed about the emerging church movement would alter my contention that it's ridiculous to allege that an obvious parody or satirical piece is actually part of some supposed emergent liturgy. One can find enough statements of questionable theological validity from actual proponents of and adherents to emergent theology without falling pray to the religious equivalent of quoting news items from The Onion.

I did not say that you have to study about it. All I said was that if you are going to diagree with my statments it might help if you actually have read or listened to someone talk about it first.

[Clodius Albinus]

I may not have read John MacArthur on the issue, and certainly wouldn't claim to be particularly well-informed about the movement, but I do know a little about it, Conniepaw, and I'm still more than a little confused about how I am unqualified to point out the exceedingly obvious. If you think that the material you posted is factually accurate, then I don't believe you're in a position to criticize me for not knowing enough about it.

I am certainly not knowledgeable enough about emergent theology to credibly debate it in a serious setting. I do, however, possess at least traces of the faculties of reason, and I'm competent to the task of, if nothing else, insisting that obvious parodies not be labeled emergent doctrine. Please clear something up for me: are you still sticking to the belief that the reinterpreted Lord's Prayer you posted is actually taught in emerging church congregations?

Sherlock: I hope you are right. The diocese for my region permits one church to follow the tridentine rite, and the diocese to the north similarly indulges one church this option. My understanding is that these services are reasonably well-attended, but not full -- this despite the fact that those who prefer such services don't exactly have a lot of options. (Oh, and thank you for providing the proper terminology. I was altogether unable to recall the proper name of documents such as the apparently pending papal rescript.)

[totustuus]

I lament the loss of the original Gregorian schola chants, the substitution of "Kyrie Eleison" for "Days of Elijah"

I am not familiar with "Days of Elijah" but I am assuming that it is replacing "Kyrie Eleison" and not the other way around. Also, do you mean to say that this song "Days of Elijah" is being sung instead of the Kyrie, that is, during the mass before the Gloria, or during other parts of the mass?

To be honest, I haven't read much on the "emerging church", though, from what I've read in this thread, it is not unlike some of the criticisms I've heard of the charismatic movement. In Catholic circles we often refer to the modernization of the Church in terms of pre and post Vatican II as this marked a move towards a modernization of the liturgy, the administrative practices and ultimately the Church itself.

We can't entirely blame Vatican II for this. Vatican II did make some major changes as to how the mass is celebrated, but I think much of the modernization has occurred within churches and dioceses, and, although it occurred after Vatican II, it had little to do with what was actually in the Vatican II documents.

I've heard Fr. Joseph Fessio state that Pope Benedict XVI has in his desk the decree that will permit each Catholic church to decide of its own accord, without soliciting the permission of the diocese, whether or not to hold a Tridentine mass. Whether many individual churches would change their missals, I do not know; sadly, I doubt there's a large audience for it. For the sake of tradition, though, I hope the practice grows.

Some traditional churches that already celebrate mass in Latin may jump at the opportunity, but I cannot see very many churches (especially not my church) starting to do the Tridentine mass. When the children's choir at my church decided to sing a simple chant mass during Lent and Advent (so we weren't even doing the Gloria) the congregation had no idea what to do. They just stood there, refused to sing, and couldn't even figure out when to kneel and stand. Admittedly, however, the only Tridentine mass I have ever attended was a funeral, and I didn't realize until afterwards that I wasn't supposed to say "amen" before receiving communion