Dune

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Dune

Post by bookworm »

Anyone else planning to see this, and if so have you read the book?

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Post by Catspaw »

It looks kind of interesting and my brother wants to see it so I might go see Dune next weekend. Neither of us have read the book. I'd love to hear thoughts from anyone who sees it and whether they think it matters that much whether you've read the book or not. In general I am a firm believer that the book is better than the movie (with very few exceptions) but this isn't really a book (or series) that I'm super interested in so I don't feel too compelled to first go read the books and then go see the move later.
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I enjoyed this very, very much! This kind of scifi with deep world building is completely up my alley.

I started the book a while ago, planning to read it before seeing this, but I haven't finished it yet. This movie only covers the first part though so it actually didn't go too far past where I'd gotten to. I would have been able to follow the story fine if I hadn't read any of it first, but I did appreciate having a head start on knowing the various characters and what was going on. Prior familiarity shouldn't be necessary though. You get a fuller understanding of the characters' temperaments and motivations and relationships in the book because of course it's more detailed in those things than something on screen could be, but the movie gets the most important information across.
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Post by Catspaw »

Thanks for the info, bookworm. This does make me more interested in seeing the movie. It looks like it won't work for me to go this weekend, but maybe next weekend.
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Post by bookworm »

Part Two has been officially greenlit for production!
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Post by Catspaw »

I should have some time to see this one before that one is out then! ;) I was trying to find a time to go see Dune in theatres but it looks like it won't work out. I'm not desperate to see it, plus I'm really busy, plus there's some icky weather in the forecast for the day that I was going to try to squeeze it in with my brother between two other prior commitments. There's always Netflix eventually. ;)
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Post by bookworm »

Part Two trailer!



I can't wait for this!
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Post by Catspaw »

I still haven't seen the first one, so I can't say I'm too worked up about the second one. ;) I'm not sure if I'm really interested enough.
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Post by bookworm »

It's not everyone's style, but it resonated with me strongly.
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Post by Petrichor »

I saw the first one in theaters, so I'm hoping to catch this one, too! My one complaint (that makes me sound really old) is that the first movie was super-duper loud in theaters. I might need earplugs. :anxious:
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Post by bookworm »

I'm seeing Part Two tomorrow! Finally! :mad:

It was originally supposed to be released last November, I was so disappointed when the strike made them delay it.
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Post by Catspaw »

I hope you enjoy it! I still haven't seen the first one. My brother asked if I wanted to see the second one because he forgot I hadn't even seen the first one (after which I claimed victory in a totally unrelated old watching-a-movie-in-theatres-related dispute based on if he forgot that, he could have forgotten something else from years earlier ;) ) so I might get around to the first one in time to see the second one in theatres. Maybe. :)
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Post by bookworm »

Oh my goodness, it is so good!

After the first movie I left the theater just completely overcome with appreciation and enjoyment of what I had just experienced. It was somehow even more so this time! And that was with having extremely high expectations of how I would feel about it!

Part Three cannot come soon enough! :mad:
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Post by Catspaw »

Wow, that's very high praise! I'm glad you enjoyed it so much.

I heard on the radio that part two has an actual ending and that the hoped-for part three will start a new story. Was that your impression too, bookworm?


BUMP:

I have now officially seen part one and will be seeing part two in theatres tomorrow! The first one was pretty good. I thought there was way too much spoken exposition at the beginning, but maybe it was deemed the best way to share info. Overall the movie kept me wondering what might happen. I already knew that there wouldn't be a clear ending, so that wasn't a disappointment since I was expecting it.

Question for people who have read the books or just know more about Dune: The line that had me puzzled was when the dad/king (Oscar Isaac) said something like, "I wish I had married you." That the king and queen (or whatever their Dune title equivalents are) have a twenty-ish-year-old son and are clearly together and she clearly fulfills the queen role and yet they are not married was odd to me. I wondered if this is for a significant reason for the future (something about the weird religious lady with the pain box, or relevant for future lineage reasons or something like that) or a quick way to acknowledge something book-relevant that I am unaware of.
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Catspaw wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2024 7:09 pm Question for people who have read the books or just know more about Dune: The line that had me puzzled was when the dad/king (Oscar Isaac) said something like, "I wish I had married you." That the king and queen (or whatever their Dune title equivalents are) have a twenty-ish-year-old son and are clearly together and she clearly fulfills the queen role and yet they are not married was odd to me. I wondered if this is for a significant reason for the future (something about the weird religious lady with the pain box, or relevant for future lineage reasons or something like that) or a quick way to acknowledge something book-relevant that I am unaware of.
Good question, they really just kind of threw that in there without much explanation (probably because it's fairly inconsequential in the grand scheme of things and if everything were to be explained fully the movie would be 10 hours long).

Despite taking place in the 11th millennium, Dune borrows heavily from old-world sensibilities, blending this mystical old vibe with super-advanced sci-fi tech. The Duke Atreides (Oscar Isaac) is a leader in this kind of old-school sense, a massive population and territory completely under his reign not unlike a Biblical king or Roman emperor who has complete authority over a huge swath of people. And similarly to how they did it in these olden times, he has concubines, of which Lady Jessica (Paul's mom) is one of them (chief among them, in fact).

The in-universe reasoning for this is that marriage when you are such an important political figurehead is a huge deal. When you have a planet or planets under your sovereign reign, it's more than just something you just do at a weekend in Vegas. Often, it is used (again, like old times) as a way of joining royal families and their empires under one uniting banner, so for example Lord Billy Bob of House Randoms would marry Lady Billie Bobbe of House Anti-Randoms and it would end the great war between the two houses, and all their planets would become a unified territory.

Leto (Oscar Isaac) never marries. He is keeping his political options open, so to speak. But at the end, he regrets not making his one true love and concubine Jessica his wife.

This is overall a pretty minor thing, but armed with this knowledge, it will make parts of Dune 2 make more sense.

Also, Dune 2 is probably one of the greatest movies ever made and completely blows Part 1 out of the water (and I loved Part 1). I highly recommend seeing it on the biggest screen possible. Enjoy! \:D/
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Post by bookworm »

Pseudo explained it well so just to reiterate: The Duke is supposed to marry for political reasons. In Leto's case such reasons never end up coming about, so toward the end of his life one of his biggest regrets is not deciding to go ahead and marry Jessica, since she is who he truly loves, even though it would have "just" been done for love.

It turns out being the same situation for Paul eventually, as he marries the Emperor's daughter for the politics even though Chani is who he loves. This is somewhat conveyed in the movie by his saying "I will love you as long as I breathe" to Chani before then demanding Irulan marry him, but it is made much clearer in the book: "That woman over there will be my wife and you but a concubine because this is a political thing and we must weld peace out of this moment ... we must obey the forms. Yet that princess shall have no more of me than my name. No child of mine nor touch nor softness of glance, nor instant of desire."
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Post by Catspaw »

Thanks guys, that's quite helpful! I get the idea of marrying for power and influence in that kind of situation (you know, hypothetically, not for realsies). ;) I can see how with so much source material, not everything can make it in.

I did see Dune 2 in theatres Sunday evening. It was quite good, as someone with no book knowledge. Some parts felt like there was a lot of time in between that was not covered, which again I know there's so much material and the movie is already very long, but in a spot or two it felt like the transition could have been better. Going directly from "learning/being tested in the desert" immediately into "clever military sand attack" felt odd to me.

The part bookworm referenced was the part that I lost any remaining respect/'this guy might be a decent person' for the main character, which maybe just makes him a more complicated/flawed character as part of his journey. Ladies, beware a guy who says he loves you and then proposes to another woman thirty seconds later. ;) I get the idea of peaceful transition of power/big empire blah blah feelings aren't as important as the universe thing, but still, red flag!

I had seen a comparison between Paul and Anakin Skywalker ahead of time (accidentally) so seeing him with the brown hood and making bad choices and prophecies/destiny themes made the comparison a natural one. It did get me thinking that for all of Anakin's many flaws (I've never been a big Anakin fangirl), disloyalty to Padme isn't one of them. Making decisions that significantly hurt her, yes. Doing it on purpose, no. He gets deceived into some things out of an outsized desire to protect Padme (which obviously works out terribly) but I sure can't see him doing what Paul did. Just a few thoughts - not trying to declare one character better than the other as a whole as they both have significant flaws and I don't have all the source material either.
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Post by bookworm »

Catspaw wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 1:03 pmLadies, beware a guy who says he loves you and then proposes to another woman thirty seconds later.
The abrupt timing does make it feel particularly offputting to us, even in the book where you get the deeper explanation, but I think it's just because we can't help that way of thinking being so foreign to us. For the characters, who know that's just how that world works, it's not seen to cause that sudden whiplash we feel. In fact in this specific case it's actually seen as really no issue at all since everyone understands it's entirely just a political thing.

Directly following that part I quoted before, Jessica speaks up: "Think on it, Chani: that princess will have the name, yet she'll live as less than a concubine - never to know a moment of tenderness from the man to whom she's bound. While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine - history will call us wives."

And that's the very final line of the book; what we're supposed to immediately take away. That as with so many other things throughout the story, outward appearances and what is actually the truth are often very different things.



This whole subject is at the center of one of the most significant changes to the story though actually. In the books Chani understands the situation and is pretty okay with it. In the movie though she seems to be very not, so that raises big questions about how they intend to continue/conclude this story. Unless there's some hasty reconciliation early on in part three, it appears there could be some major alterations coming to the rest of Paul's journey.
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Post by Catspaw »

That sounds like a textbook case for how to create a lot of miserable people. I can't help but think of how multiple wives and concubines worked out for Jacob in the biblical record. While I can see how it may be accepted by characters as part of the way their world of power works, I still can't find anything truly romantic or acceptable in it on a personal level. I don't know the reason for the film clearly showing Chani's dissatisfaction with the idea, since that does seem to potentially hold big plot changes. It might somewhat reflect that in 2024 it seems a little less okay for the women to happily accept being pawns in a political power game than it might have when the books were written in the 1960s. There could also be story plans to add to the conflict/drama/whatever. I'm not saying that there aren't in-world reasons for characters accepting the situation; it does mean that there's no romance for me personally to enjoy and cheer on, which is a thing I do like in movies (and TV shows and books and....you get the idea.) ;) That is a very interesting final line! Thanks for sharing more insight from the books, bookworm.
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Post by bookworm »

Well, it's funny, because while I don't think this particular aspect of Paul's decision making is supposed to necessarily be one of the 'red flags' (though I'm not saying it's wrong for you to feel that way, it's just not one of the points I think the author intended to be an overly glaring issue), it did get you to the correct feeling that something is off here and being unsure how to feel about Paul.
Catspaw wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 1:03 pmThe was the part that I lost any remaining respect/'this guy might be a decent person' for the main character, which maybe just makes him a more complicated/flawed character as part of his journey.
Paul is the protagonist of this story, not the hero. We're so used to those being the same thing.

Dune was written to be a warning against blindly following charismatic religious or political leaders. We aren't supposed to be rooting for Paul, entirely. In some of the things he's trying to do, yes, but not in everything.

So many people saw the book as a 'happy ending good guy overcame all those obstacles to achieve his goals' story, because that's what we expect, that he wrote the second one to explicitly say no that's the wrong message.
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