I think too much...

[Samantha14]

So, random thought... I don't know what made me think of this. Too much time on my hands, I suppose you could say.

Anyways, I was reading some different things in the Bible, and something strange occurred to me. Let me explain...

7:1 The Lord then said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation.

7:7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives entered the ark to escape the waters of the flood.

8:15-19 15 Then God said to Noah, 16 “Come out of the ark, you and your wife and your sons and their wives. 17 Bring out every kind of living creature that is with you—the birds, the animals, and all the creatures that move along the ground—so they can multiply on the earth and be fruitful and increase in number on it.” 18 So Noah came out, together with his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives. 19 All the animals and all the creatures that move along the ground and all the birds—everything that moves on land—came out of the ark, one kind after another.

9:1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth.

9:7-8 7 As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it.” 8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: 9 “I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you

9:18-19 18 The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.) 19 These were the three sons of Noah, and from them came the people who were scattered over the whole earth.

Okay, that was a lot of repetitive nonsense.* But I have a point of posting them.

I was thinking about this when reading in Leviticus today. While I understand that this, as well as the many other stories with this nature came way before the time of Moses and the laws given to the people of Israel, it still doesn't make complete sense.

If Noah and his wife and his three sons and their wives were to come out of the ark and "Be fruitful and multiply", wouldn't that mean inter-family relations? In the laws given to the Israelites, it clearly states that inter-family relations are a big no-no. However, one can come up with the argument that during the time of Noah and the others, God saw it fit to allow this in order to fill the earth again. I actually believe this argument, honestly.

However, that leaves something hanging for me... If 'we are all descendants of Noah's sons', wouldn't that still make everyone related in some sort? Meaning, technically speaking, all marriages are illegal in God's eyes.

Unless (getting to my next point), of one possible explanation. Not really an explanation, but a possible theory. Do you think it may be even slightly possible that God created another human in the way of Adam? That is to say, out of nothing. The Bible never says this, and if you believe in in Sola Scriptura, you probably aren't likely to believe in or even give much thought to the idea of this sort of thing. But, God is an amazing God who works in mysterious ways. He may have done that again. I for one, sort of doubt it. But it could be likely.

I've also heard the argument that during the time of the Tower of Babel, when God confused the languages and nations, and scattered the people throughout the earth, that it also split the generations and families so that they were no longer related. I'm not really sure that this makes any sense because even if He did scatter the peoples, it wouldn't change genetics, right? Somehow, it would always trace back to Shem, Ham, and Japheth. (Boy, I don't wanna think about how many kids they had to have had. )

Of course, Leviticus also says that the Israelites (Also meaning us, His people) were not to have relations with close relatives. So, what counts as a close relative? Do cousins count? There are instances even after the law was given that cousins wed. Leviticus gives many account on who close relatives are, but cousins aren't in the list. And why are there double standards? (I.E. A man cannot marry his aunt, but a woman her uncle.) At least, during that time.

It would make sense for cousins not to be considered too close. Perhaps, 1st cousins, though it doesn't say this. If cousins didn't count, that would make up for the realization that everyone would be related in the sense of at LEAST a cousin role. However, if they do count, what does that say for marriage to begin with? God said that, as long as His 'standards' and such were met, marriage between a man and a woman is a good thing. But, wouldn't genealogy eventually contradict His words on that note? I mean, if we were to trace back for who knows how long, we'd see that we all were very very spaced relatives. However, I guess since we are so spaced after time, it no longer counts as close relatives.

However, I also know that God never changes. He never contradicts Himself, and He is always right. He is always truth, because He is truth. It's just the fact that I'm finding a lot of confusing paradoxes here. >.<

Now then, I'm going to stop rambling. Discuss. ...Or feel free to chew me out. Either way.

*Nonsense as in seemingly pointless usage of the Scriptures, not the scriptures themselves.

[Termite]

....O.O

Sammy. Your mind. I think I've finally found someone like me.

I think it possible God could have created someone else after Adam... but that person would have had to sin as well, because he would have been created perfect. So, I don't know. It's an interesting thought.

[John Chrysostom]

Sam, I think it is very possible that God created humans other than Adam and Eve. Let's take a look at Genesis 1:26-28 " Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” Notice that this doesn't follow the account in the next chapter where Adam is created first. In this account male and female are created at the same time. I think this is pretty solid proof for the creation of multiple humans.

Now Termite brings up a good point, wouldn't they have to sin as well? This is where I think the idea of sin as an inherited trait really breaks down. If instead, like I've been saying, sin is a corruption of all creation and isn't an inherited trait; then humans living at the same time who didn't sin would be corrupted along with the rest of nature. After all, the plants and animals became corrupted too but they didn't sin.

[Samantha14]

Wow... I have no idea what to reply with apart from the fact that I agree with every word you just said.

What about after the flood? Are you saying only during the time between Adam and Noah, or afterwards too?

Also, I think during the time of Adam and Eve God would have had to make more than just Adam and Eve. I mean, He gave them three sons. One was killed, however. So unless he's going to break His word about homosexuality being detestable in His eyes, or His soon to come laws about not having relations with your mother, He would have had to have made at least two other women in order to continue the generations. So, I guess this is a heads or tails, we may not all be related to Adam and Eve after all sort of thing. (Shocker. 0.0 )

...And sorry if this made no sense.

[John Chrysostom]

I'm not sure whether the people were around after Noah's time. I guess it really depends on how literal you take the world wide flood, I'm still pretty sure there was a world wide flood but I am open to arguments for a more localized flood. But I don't think it would be as weird in any case. Since Noah's descendants could reproduce with first cousins, which may seem weird now but is obviously better than brothers and sisters.

Another interesting note to support more humans in Adam and Eve's time. When Cain is punished he says "I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on the earth, and it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me." I don't think he's talking about his other brother or Adam, it seems like there are more people than Adam and his family. Also Cain then goes off and builds a city, kind of hard to build a city without other people around.

[Doll]

What about Adam and Eve? How was Adam and Eve's children marrying each other any different? (If that is what happened) I believe everyone is still related to everyone, even if its only through Noah and his wife (and subsequently Adam and Eve)

Also, I think during the time of Adam and Eve God would have had to make more than just Adam and Eve.

Genesis 5:4: After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters.

The Law about close family members not marrying each other wasn't put in place until the time of Moses. Before that, Abraham married his half-sister (Genesis 20:12), Issac married the daughter of his cousin, and Jacob married his cousins Leah and Rachel.

I think it possible God could have created someone else after Adam... but that person would have had to sin as well, because he would have been created perfect. So, I don't know. It's an interesting thought.

^This is my thought.

[Samantha14]

I'm not sure whether the people were around after Noah's time. I guess it really depends on how literal you take the world wide flood, I'm still pretty sure there was a world wide flood but I am open to arguments for a more localized flood. But I don't think it would be as weird in any case. Since Noah's descendants could reproduce with first cousins, which may seem weird now but is obviously better than brothers and sisters.

Another interesting note to support more humans in Adam and Eve's time. When Cain is punished he says "I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on the earth, and it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me." I don't think he's talking about his other brother or Adam, it seems like there are more people than Adam and his family. Also Cain then goes off and builds a city, kind of hard to build a city without other people around.

I should have been a bit more clear. I meant do you think God made other people from nothing and such after the flood, or if we are all literal descendants of Shem, Ham, and Jephath. I mean, in the verses that I posted, it says He told them to go out and be fruitful, an multiply. To refill the earth. So, if one wants to take that literally, then they could use the argument that He told these families to do so, and then blessed them with many many children, etc. But, there could also be an argument that He could have made any more humans he desired, as He is God and can do as He sees fit. Etc. I don't know, it's just a theory. *shrug*

And, as far as the flood, I definitely believe that it was a world wide flood. I'm not really sure I could be open to argument. Doesn't it say that it was world wide? Or, at least, that all life was wiped out. That would mean people and animals and plants, which I'm assuming were everywhere. So I really don't know...

And, I also agree about the last part. Cities with only one person are lonely.

What about Adam and Eve? How was Adam and Eve's children marrying each other any different? (If that is what happened) I believe everyone is still related to everyone, even if its only through Noah and his wife (and subsequently Adam and Eve)

Also, I think during the time of Adam and Eve God would have had to make more than just Adam and Eve.

Genesis 5:4: After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters.

The Law about close family members not marrying each other wasn't put in place until the time of Moses. Before that, Abraham married his half-sister (Genesis 20:12), Issac married the daughter of his cousin, and Jacob married his cousins Leah and Rachel.

I think it possible God could have created someone else after Adam... but that person would have had to sin as well, because he would have been created perfect. So, I don't know. It's an interesting thought.

^This is my thought.

A. What about Adam and Eve? I'm confused as to what you mean. Marrying within the family, I know, is "now" (As in from the time of the law onward) wrong. But I did exclude during that time, because it wasn't law at that time. And God probably saw it fit to allow that to happen in order to start and continue the generations, I know. I'm just confused now...

B. Heh. I always forget about that verse. . >.> However, I still don't think that they only had each other... It could very well be possible that there are others. I lean slightly towards doubting it, but again, I'm not sure.

C. Yeah... But I think that's where 11th's thought about everything going corrupt at once. Perhaps firstly there were only Adam and Eve. But, maybe, after they were kicked out of the Garden of Eden, their paradise, God created other men and other women out there. Somewhere. Perhaps off of the sin that they bore? I'm not entirely sure, because God isn't imperfect, therefore can't make imperfection, AKA sin. . .Right?

Though if Christian's theory is right about us just being clay in His hands, and He made Adam and Eve based on His image, and he made Lucifer, and there is no sin in heaven, and... >.< So many questions are just revolving in my mind right now. Is it that there is no sin in heaven now, but thanks to Lucifer there was at one time? How did he come to be wicked and arrogant to begin with? If people didn't have choices or free will, and were made in God's image, how did Adam and Eve choose to sin? If we can only do sin by nature, how and where and why did we get this nature? So many questions...

Wow... My entire conversation just blew in the completely opposite direction. Oh well, take what you wish from them.

[John Chrysostom]

I don't think God made more humans after Adam and Eve or after the flood. My argument is that more humans than just Adam and Eve were created at creation.

I think the solution to the whole problem of natures and free will is to completely reject Christian's theories. We do have free will and choice, this calms the mind and answers all those questions.

[Samantha14]

Or after the flood... So every generation spawned from Noah's sons and daughter in laws and went from there? I'm just making sure I understand right. Plus, argument to what, exactly? That doesn't exactly give a valid argument to the rest, if it's to what I'm thinking, because we know that only Noah's family were saved. So.. What exactly are you saying? *Is confused...Again...* =P

Actually, it doesn't. But I'll let it slide.

[Doll]

A. What about Adam and Eve? I'm confused as to what you mean.

I meant, what about them, and their kids, having to marry each other, and then marry cousins, if that is what happened.

(I am withholding any more comments until I have time to think more on this subject)

[Anna><>]

I always thought that Adam and Eve had a bunch of sons and daughters who married each other. Their DNA was all good back then, so by inter-familial relations they wouldn't be getting genetic problems like happens now because of limited genetic diversity.

[jelly]

You might find it helpful to come at this from different perspectives, i.e. various scientific theories, rather than only staying within the box of Scripture. Remember, the Book of Genesis isn't meant to be a history book, and it certainly doesn't claim any scientific merit.

I once read a theory suggesting that, according to everything we can account from the gene pool, there would have had to be at least 10,000 'original' human species. I don't know a whole lot more than that, however, though it definitely merits further study.

Oh, and for what it's worth, you can never think too much.

[Samantha14]

I always thought that Adam and Eve had a bunch of sons and daughters who married each other. Their DNA was all good back then, so by inter-familial relations they wouldn't be getting genetic problems like happens now because of limited genetic diversity.

I'm not really sure. That could be the case, but I am leaning towards doubting it. It's confusing, really.

You might find it helpful to come at this from different perspectives, i.e. various scientific theories, rather than only staying within the box of Scripture. Remember, the Book of Genesis isn't meant to be a history book, and it certainly doesn't claim any scientific merit.

I once read a theory suggesting that, according to everything we can account from the gene pool, there would have had to be at least 10,000 'original' human species. I don't know a whole lot more than that, however, though it definitely merits further study.

Oh, and for what it's worth, you can never think too much.

That's true, Jelly. Now I need to go do more research. I've not really looked much into the scientific theories behind it, but now I'm going to.

Huh.. Do you know how they figured that it's about 10000 originals? Or, not? It's okay if you don't, I'm just curious.

Ahaha, you don't know me too well then, Jelly. Last time I started "thinking" I ended up with a broken arm.

[Astronomer]

I once read a theory suggesting that, according to everything we can account from the gene pool, there would have had to be at least 10,000 'original' human species. I don't know a whole lot more than that, however, though it definitely merits further study.

That's true, Jelly. Now I need to go do more research. I've not really looked much into the scientific theories behind it, but now I'm going to.

Huh.. Do you know how they figured that it's about 10000 originals? Or, not? It's okay if you don't, I'm just curious.

I've heard of research that claims they traced genetics back to a man and a woman which originated in the Palestine area.

[Dasi]

wait Sammy thinks God created someone else after Adam? I don't think that he did because it never said anything about that in the Bible. Adam and Eve were the only ones.

@Jelly, but the scripture would be what would say if God created another person. scientests don't always know everything and if God had created someone else I'm pretty sure it would be in the Bible. plus scientests come up with wacky things sometimes.

[John Chrysostom]

I addressed this issue earlier.

Genesis 1:26-28 " Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” Notice that this doesn't follow the account in the next chapter where Adam is created first. In this account male and female are created at the same time. I think this is pretty solid proof for the creation of multiple humans.

[Dasi]

I don't see how you see that.

[John Chrysostom]

Fair enough, you don't see the the differences between the two accounts in Genesis?

[Dasi]

oh well I see where it says that, but just because it says it in 2 different ways doesn't mean he created more humans than just Adam and Eve.

[Sunshine]

Sammy, you should check out "Answers in Genesis" (click here). They have really good literature about this sort of thing, and it all centers around the Biblical accounts.

I'm not sure if I can explain this very well, but here's what I think:

I always thought that Adam and Eve had a bunch of sons and daughters who married each other. Their DNA was all good back then, so by inter-familial relations they wouldn't be getting genetic problems like happens now because of limited genetic diversity.

I think it does have a lot to do with how DNA works.

Their DNA was better back then. So let's say that Noah's sons have children, and then they marry each other and have kids, and so on and so forth. Now, as they began to multiply, and spread across the land, they build cities in different places, and start forming groups. In ever person's body, there's good DNA, and then there's bad DNA (caused by sin), which may contain or carry (or however you should say it =P ) diseases, deformities, etc. As people continue marrying, and having children, DNA from both parents is in each child, and dominate genes overcome recessive genes. As groups of people continue marrying inside the family, eventually everyone is going to end up with similar genes, whether good or bad. Therefore, when God commands them to not marry inside their families, then there is a better chance of dominate good genes overcoming recessive bad genes, and therefore, families are not killed by diseases, deformities, etc.
In today's age, if you were to marry inside the family, it would cause a lot of problems as far as health, because you have a lot of similar genes. But when you "mix'n'match," the genes benefit each other, because good dominate genes can overcome the other's bad recessive genes.

I hope that made sense - it makes sense to me, but I'm not accustomed to putting it into my own words.

Anyway, like I said Sam, you should really check into the Answers in Genesis books.