Ask an alcohol-drinking, girl-kissing, pot-smoking Atheist!

[Whitty Whit]

1 billion years from now, will man become a more evolved human-or some other highly evolved creature-because we are constantly becoming more complex?

Nope - you don't seem to understand the fundamental basics of evolution.

I thought it was a valid question because I do know people who believe that...

So basically from what I have gathered, you believe that man evolved from a single organism and over time has adjusted into his environment through gradual changes.

Using your tall-necked illustration... let's say all the short-necks die out and the tall-necks survive. What if the trees changed and all became little bushes with all of the fruit in such a way the tall necks could not eat... How would that be solved?

I'm not trying to muddle up the Q&A with "what ifs", I'm trying to get to a point where I know exactly what you believe.

Edit: As a sidenote to your last post, I don't believe equating piranhas to humans is a valid point. Piranhas don't have a mind/soul. They act solely on instinct. They do not have "thought processes" as humans do.

And don't think I'm ignoring you if I don't post again today, I may or may not get around to it tonight. I do hope that you don't mind my questions.

[Jesus' Princess]

Do you think that humans are inherently good, or inherently evil? Is it possible for everyone to live in peace and harmony with one another?

I would argue that there is no global, all-encompassing "good" or "evil", and that they exist only in contexts. So in the context of humanity....

Let's put it this way. I believe morality is an evolutionary trait (more on this here) that is present in almost all living things. Piranhas don't attack each other. Why? Countless animals, such as ants, perform acts of self-sacrifice for the "greater good". Things we define as "good" tend to be things that benefit us as a species, not necessarily as an individual. Things we consider "evil" tend to prioritize our personal individual gains and desires over the survival and well-being of our species. This makes perfect sense in an evolutionary context, and any species without such traits would be unlikely to survive. So back to your question - I don't think they're necessarily either, but I believe most humans tend to lean towards the good side. The problem is, the human world is so complex and intricate, morality starts to become muddled in its complexity.

So are you saying that humans are just another species in this world then? Are we no different from the piranhas? We've just evolved to a better place than they have

[xiao]

I thought it was a valid question because I do know people who believe that...

So basically from what I have gathered, you believe that man evolved from a single organism and over time has adjusted into his environment through gradual changes.

Using your tall-necked illustration... let's say all the short-necks die out and the tall-necks survive. What if the trees changed and all became little bushes with all of the fruit in such a way the tall necks could not eat... How would that be solved?

I'm not trying to muddle up the Q&A with "what ifs", I'm trying to get to a point where I know exactly what you believe.

Oh, don't get me wrong - it's absolutely a valid question and I'm glad you asked it - I'm just letting you know that evolution doesn't quite work that way.

With your tail-tree example, the same way it was solved the first time. There would be giraffes with shorter necked genes still in the pool (due to gene variation, which makes this all possible) and they would have the advantage. Over a long, long period of time, more and more of these short-necked giraffes would dominate the gene pool and their genes would eventually replace the longer-necked genes. If this couldn't happen rapidly enough, or their necks couldn't shorten drastically enough, they would simply die out.

Also I'd like you to know this is not exclusively my personal belief - there are tons of great books detailing this process in much more eloquent, scientific terms than I could ever pretend to throw at you here. If you're interested, I could hook you up with some great places to get started.

[So are you saying that humans are just another species in this world then? Are we no different from the piranhas? We've just evolved to a better place than they have

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. This is a highly uncomfortable thought for many people, as humans tend to be pretty big-headed about their grand importance in the scheme of the universe, especially religious people, who have prided themselves as the grand masterpiece creation of a perfect, devine being. But human beings are just another species. We are animals. We may be dramatically smarter, conscious, and able to adapt in a way no other species on earth can, but we are still just another species. We just happen to be the "fittest". The dominant species of Earth, due to our adaptability.

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

Do you think that humans are inherently good, or inherently evil? Is it possible for everyone to live in peace and harmony with one another?

OOOHHHH This is such a good question. I so want to answer it. But I'll let xiao go first cause it's his thread.

Ok, my answer. That of course depends on your definition of "good" and "evil," but humans naturally go towards traits that are traditionally considered evil like selfishness and greed. We naturally exhibit those traits. However we all work together in a community "for the greater good" because of the idea of safety in numbers. Those who tended towards groups were more likely to survive than not. However we still retain selfish and greedy tendencies because survival and reproduction for yourself is an inherently greedy thing. Those two instincts, survival and reproduction, are the two that guide virtually all behaviors.

Now for the second question. Do I think that's possible? No, I don't think so. Unfortunately along with the group benefit, we also have the idea of the "other." That is the idea that those people who look like me and are in the same group as me are the good ones and those over there who do other things and look different are the bad ones. We see this over and over again. One place where it is particularly pronounced is religion since there's the idea of "my beliefs are right and if you don't believe them you aren't going to be able to go to heaven/escape the wheel of life/ascend to a higher plane of existence. This naturally leads to the idea of "well those people are bad because they don't believe what we good people believe." This is the reason why all those "-ism's" exist. Racism, sexism, gayism, classism. And of course anti-religion hatred. And stereotypes and hatred towards those in other countries and patriotism and nationalism. And a lot of other things that are direct products of this phenomenon.

If we are to all work together, live in peace, and not kill each other, we'd have to form this idea that all of humanity is in the same group. That there is no "other." That we're all in this together, ect. However that biological instinct against that is very strong. We'd have to develop a lack of patriotism where we have no political borders. That is fairly unlikely. It could happen, but I don't find it very unlikely considering the past fifteen thousand years of human history.

So are you saying that humans are just another species in this world then? Are we no different from the piranhas? We've just evolved to a better place than they have

I don't think we're in a better place than a lot of other living things on the earth mostly because we have the capacity to destroy ourselves several times over and we are over-consuming everything on the planet until there will inevitably be nothing left in several decades, probably longer. Though our current way of life is very unsustainable.

[Jesus' Princess]

Do you think that humans are inherently good, or inherently evil? Is it possible for everyone to live in peace and harmony with one another?

OOOHHHH This is such a good question. I so want to answer it. But I'll let xiao go first cause it's his thread.

Ok, my answer. That of course depends on your definition of "good" and "evil," but humans naturally go towards traits that are traditionally considered evil like selfishness and greed. We naturally exhibit those traits. However we all work together in a community "for the greater good" because of the idea of safety in numbers. Those who tended towards groups were more likely to survive than not. However we still retain selfish and greedy tendencies because survival and reproduction for yourself is an inherently greedy thing. Those two instincts, survival and reproduction, are the two that guide virtually all behaviors.

Okay, so would it be fair to assume that you believe good and evil to be relative then, and that there is no moral absolute?

[Guess Who!]

Go ask that question in my thread! Both JJJJ and I would answer it, too

of course, if JJJJ posts HERE, than what's the point Fighting threads. Mine's losing

[xiao]

The second two paragraphs of JJJJ's above post are excellent points and ones I forgot to make in my original answer. This "other" behavior is largely responsible for all of the major wars, hatred and suffering in humanity. The fear of the unknown. The need to attribute things different to us to an enemy, and to refuse to reconsider. Look at what we did to the native americans. The blacks. Now, the gays. People of different religions. It all stems from fear. It was originally a survival instinct, but on a large, modern-day scale, it's malfunctioning, and destroying us. We absolutely must conquer it if we intend to survive.

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

Ya, go shift the questions to this thread so we all can answer :

http://www.thetoo.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=32317

[Guess Who!]

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. This is a highly uncomfortable thought for many people, as humans tend to be pretty big-headed about their grand importance in the scheme of the universe, especially religious people, who have prided themselves as the grand masterpiece creation of a perfect, devine being. But human beings are just another species. We are animals. We may be dramatically smarter, conscious, and able to adapt in a way no other species on earth can, but we are still just another species. We just happen to be the "fittest". The dominant species of Earth, due to our adaptability.

Well. We get to call ourselves "dominant" because we're the ones interested in ranking species.... I don't *quite* think that's entirely valid lol

We're best at the things we value most, which is awesome. Yay for us. It doesn't necessarily make us the "fittest" species, I'd say, though.

[xiao]

Well. We get to call ourselves "dominant" because we're the ones interested in ranking species.... I don't *quite* think that's entirely valid lol

We're best at the things we value most, which is awesome. Yay for us. It doesn't necessarily make us the "fittest" species, I'd say, though.

We're dominant because we pretty much control the world. There's not a single animal we can't outwit, capture, kill, skin, eat, etc. This makes us the dominant species in a quite literal sense, although I do know what you mean. However, in the darwinistic sense of the word, we are the "fittest" species for this planet, as we can survive in the most environments.

[Tea Ess]

So, xiao, to finally get back to you:

That's quite interesting. I am not at all familiar with the musical world, but I wish you good luck. You're not allowed to ask questions back in a Q&A thread!

First and foremost, I hope to be much more mature in my Christian faith, being closer to God and stronger in my relationship with Him. As for college and the working world, I, being homeschooled, still have many doors open and have yet to chose exactly what I will do. I have considered either online college or an accelerated learning program, both of which have much to offer. I may study to be an actuary or I may pursue a more creative field.

Enough about me.

How would you define morality?

Why does government exist, and is it overall a benefit to mankind?

Do you often discuss your atheism with others?

What is our purpose in life?

I'll go back and retread your post earlier, but as far as I have read you believe man is inperfect. Can we solve this imperfection or I some way soften it?

[Guess Who!]

Jesus Princess, I copied your question over to the other thread because I wanted to answer it, too, and this is xiao's. If you're interested in what I said, head on over there

Well. We get to call ourselves "dominant" because we're the ones interested in ranking species.... I don't *quite* think that's entirely valid lol

We're best at the things we value most, which is awesome. Yay for us. It doesn't necessarily make us the "fittest" species, I'd say, though.

We're dominant because we pretty much control the world. There's not a single animal we can't outwit, capture, kill, skin, eat, etc. This makes us the dominant species in a quite literal sense, although I do know what you mean. However, in the darwinistic sense of the word, we are the "fittest" species for this planet, as we can survive in the most environments.

We've not even survived as our modern species even one million years! Our entire genus is less than ten million years old! We cannot be considered the dominate species, not even genus, especially as we are very possibly going to cause another mass extinction that very well may take us out with thousands of other species. Unless we survive it, we're just an insignificant blip in the record of life on earth... no more "dominant" than the *ASTEROID* which took out the dinosaurs.*

Yeah. For a few minutes, that sucker REALLY was in control!!

It's staying power, really, that really determines fitness. We've barely even begun to be tested. We very well may fail. In fact, up until about 10 thousand years or so most places we really COULDN'T live, and only in the last 100 years or so do we really "control the world" as you say.

* or whatever else did. My point is, short term things, not a big deal.

[xiao]

We've not even survived as our modern species even one million years! Our entire genus is less than ten million years old! We cannot be considered the dominate species, not even genus, especially as we are very possibly going to cause another mass extinction that very well may take us out with thousands of other species. Unless we survive it, we're just an insignificant blip in the record of life on earth... no more "dominant" than the *ASTEROID* which took out the dinosaurs.*

Yeah. For a few minutes, that sucker REALLY was in control!!

It's staying power, really, that really determines fitness. We've barely even begun to be tested. We very well may fail. In fact, up until about 10 thousand years or so most places we really COULDN'T live, and only in the last 100 years or so do we really "control the world" as you say.

That doesn't change anything - we are still currently the dominant species of earth. If any of these massive catastrophes you described happen, do you think we have less of a chance of survival than cats, frogs, or monkeys? I don't think so, bud. We might be new to the game, but we're on top right now.

T.S., those are some excellent, loaded questions and I'll try to get on them as soon as I can.

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

T.S., those are some excellent, loaded questions and I'll try to get on them as soon as I can.

Ya, that's what I always said where T.S. was involved.

Also SHIFT SHIFT!

http://www.thetoo.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=32317

[Guess Who!]

We've not even survived as our modern species even one million years! Our entire genus is less than ten million years old! We cannot be considered the dominate species, not even genus, especially as we are very possibly going to cause another mass extinction that very well may take us out with thousands of other species. Unless we survive it, we're just an insignificant blip in the record of life on earth... no more "dominant" than the *ASTEROID* which took out the dinosaurs.*

Yeah. For a few minutes, that sucker REALLY was in control!!

It's staying power, really, that really determines fitness. We've barely even begun to be tested. We very well may fail. In fact, up until about 10 thousand years or so most places we really COULDN'T live, and only in the last 100 years or so do we really "control the world" as you say.

That doesn't change anything - we are still currently the dominant species of earth. If any of these massive catastrophes you described happen, do you think we have less of a chance of survival than cats, frogs, or monkeys? I don't think so, bud. We might be new to the game, but we're on top right now.

T.S., those are some excellent, loaded questions and I'll try to get on them as soon as I can.

Oh our chances are certainly much worse than insects, generally as a group, fishes, generally as a group, birds, generally as a large group, and if we want to get specific, I think such things as mice have better chances than us in the mammal group, and lizzards, as a general group, are going to do ok, too. We're really quite fragile, actually. And compared to bacteria? FORGET ABOUT IT.

[EK]

I was about to read through EVERY ANSWER ON THIS TOPIC, but then I didn't.

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

I was about to read through EVERY ANSWER ON THIS TOPIC, but then I didn't.

LAZY!

[xiao]

Oh our chances are certainly much worse than insects, generally as a group, fishes, generally as a group, birds, generally as a large group, and if we want to get specific, I think such things as mice have better chances than us in the mammal group, and lizzards, as a general group, are going to do ok, too. We're really quite fragile, actually. And compared to bacteria? FORGET ABOUT IT.

Absolutely with the insects - fishes, I'm not so sure about. My point remains, at the current time we are the dominant species, these are all "what ifs" despite their probability.

Now, to answer some of T.S.'s questions. Sorry this took a little while.

How would you define morality?

I've been over it quite a bit in this topic already, but morality is an evolutionary trait to help us keep a group mentality. Things we consider "good" tend to benefit our species over our own personal needs, and things we consider "evil" tend to prioritize personal gain and desires over the well-being of other humans and humanity in general. It's present in all species - examples I used earlier included piranhas not attacking each other, ants committing self-sacrifice for the benefit of the colony, etc. Our morality just runs deeper since we are much more complex creatures (at least mentally)

Why does government exist, and is it overall a benefit to mankind?

That's an interesting one. I suppose the most basic answer to your first question would be "order", but that's not exactly its primary function nowadays. I think the concept of governments is a benefit to mankind, but by their nature they will always become corrupt - so it's important to have a lot of defensive measures that would allow us to fix the unavoidable corruption. If we're speaking about the US government, I fear it is far too late already.

Do you often discuss your atheism with others?

It's not something I like to go around and flaunt, as the word "atheist" has a lot of negative presumptions and connotations. I never hide it, though. If someone were to ask me, I'd tell them flat out. There are circumstances where I find it important to discuss it with others, however - and that's mostly because I believe that (in most cases, not all) religion is a generally destructive thing for mankind - it limits our imagination, our sense of wonder, our thirst for knowledge. It represses our natural urges to be human. It separates us over trivial, meaningless issues that can never be resolved or proven, just by their nature. Now I'm not out to say no one should be allowed to believe whatever they want, or express whatever opinion they want, but I also believe that religion was an important tool in humanity's upbringings that needs to be left in its infancy if we hope to progress as a species. It is simply not reality, and it is not a healthy belief for our future generations to be harboring.

What is our purpose in life?

Again, I've already touched on this in this topic, but to briefly go over it again here - humans seem to have some sort of inherent need for a cosmic purpose. I'm not sure why life is not enough for them, but it just isn't. If I could take a shot at the purpose of life (for humanity as a species, not as individuals) it would be to expand, explore, and continue to learn and understand the universe we are a part of. I feel as though it is our responsibility, given that we are able to do so, and humanity takes great joy in making strides in such areas. As individuals, that's a much broader question, but if you'd like me to get into it I definitely can.

I'll go back and retread your post earlier, but as far as I have read you believe man is inperfect. Can we solve this imperfection or I some way soften it?

That's safe to say! Everything is imperfect. There is even a perfection to that concept alone. I'm not sure if we can ever "solve" our imperfections, but we can certainly work on them. As JJJJ stated earlier, one of our most dire flaws is our tendency to alienate and demonize groups of people. I strongly believe open-mindedness is the key to humanity's future. There was quite a bit more posted on the subject in some of his posts and mine above.

[American Eagle]

I came to this thread hoping to be amused but all I found was boring evolution debates.

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

Ya see, that happens when you're actually being thoughtful about things. And Ms. Anonymous, myself, and xiao are fairly thoughtful a lot of the time. Comes with being an atheist.