PHC - Clarification

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SoccerLOTR
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Post by SoccerLOTR »

odysseyfan1 wrote:I think we need to stop using the word "mistake." I think it's confusing everybody. A mistake, is sin. So if a Christian lies, then yes, he does sin, even if he didn't mean to. But once again, I'm saying that they need to apologize to God and the person they lied to, and God will forgive them. I hope everybody understands what I'm saying. :D
Thank you, that helps. So you do basically agree that Christians aren't perfect and still sin, but because we love God, we should try not to and should do our best to obey Him, repenting when God's Spirit prompts us to recognize our wrongdoing? And that sin is an ongoing struggle that we must overcome every day in seeking to be like Christ?
Ayn Rand wrote:I agree with Odysseyfan that confession of sins is an integral part of our faith, however I disagree with his statement that 1 John is speaking to converts only as I think that's stretching the text into what you want it to say. As for the statement that it's speaking to sinners yes it is, and we are all sinners just because we're Christians doesn't mean we stop sinning it just means we can have those sins forgiven. The Romans 6:15 verse doesn't say we will never sin it say "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!" It says we should not sin now that we are no longer under the law with the idea that we'll confess our sins later and be fine but what this is not saying is that we will never sin again now that we are Christians.

Now that being said I think God will show mercy upon who He wishes and the idea that we have to be up to date on our confessions to get into heaven seems very Catholic and legalistic to me and this is coming from an Eastern Orthodox who goes to confession with a priest.
:yes: I agree. Paul's point is that we can't attain perfection through following the law--that it is by God's grace we are saved. But he wanted to correct any assumptions people may have had that they could sin all they wanted, letting them know that they should still seek to do what is right, despite being drawn to do wrong. If we go about sinning after we have become Christians--as if it doesn't matter--it shows that we haven't had a necessary change of attitude and that we don't really love God or seek to know him. But if we seek God and seek to correct our wrongdoings and seek to obey Him, we show that we have a real relationship with God and are indeed saved. And like Ayn said, God will show mercy on whom He wishes--God knows our hearts and knows if we are/will be repentant (i.e. if we die while in the middle of a sin, He knows if we were directly disobeying Him and knows if we would have continued to blatantly disobey or if we would have come back to Him in repentance afterwards).
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Post by Knight Fisher »

Amethystic wrote:
Knight Fisher wrote::mad: What do I have to say.God doesn't erase sin so it doesn't happen! ](*,) Paul sinned constantly. Every single person that ever existed with the obvious exception of Jesus. Was is and shall be in the habit of sinning constantly! #-o You cannot stop. You will sin again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again. Have I made my point. :help:
:huh: That's a lot of frantic emoticons.
I was feeling a lot of emotions.
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Post by odysseyfan1 »

Thank you, that helps. So you do basically agree that Christians aren't perfect and still sin, but because we love God, we should try not to and should do our best to obey Him, repenting when God's Spirit prompts us to recognize our wrongdoing? And that sin is an ongoing struggle that we must overcome every day in seeking to be like Christ?
Yes, I think I agree with that. :) God isn't an angry ogre sitting on a cloud waiting to strike us with lightning when we mess up. We shouldn't constantly live in fear that we might step out of line. That's not what I'm saying at all. But when we do commit a sin (tell a lie for example) we should say "God, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to do that. Please forgive me." and then apologize to the person you lied to. You don't have to constantly be looking over your past worrying whether you ever showed a bad attitude or went a little over the speed limit. God will show you what he wants you to make right.
Knight Fisher wrote:Paul sinned constantly.
I'd sure like to see some proof of that. ;)
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Post by Amethystic »

Yes, and I'm sure we all agree that repenting and apologizing is the right thing to do. However, not doing the right thing won't necessarily keep you out of heaven.
Paul wrote: We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
See? Paul was human too.
Last edited by Amethystic on Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by odysseyfan1 »

Ayn Rand wrote:I think this is the problem with trying to set up rules for getting into heaven you always have to be making exceptions for special circumstances and if you can bend the rule here how does it stand elsewhere?
We're not trying to set up rules. We're just doing what the Bible says. (This isn't just a PHC belief. Lots of evangelicals believe this) Obviously the thief didn't have time to make restitutions. But this is the great thing about God's grace.
Or what if I commit a sin in ignorance such as forgetting to pay for gas and I drive away and never realize that I've stolen.
That wouldn't be a sin. ;)
Knight Fisher wrote:You cannot stop. You will sin again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.
That is not true. We are called to be holy!
Bookworm wrote:First, are you saying that Christians do or don’t still sin?
If Christians are consistently sinning (especially when they don't make restitutions) then something is obviously wrong. Take, for example, what my friend said: "I lied today, but I know I'm going to Heaven." How can that be possible? The Bible says that all liars shall be cast into a lake of fire.

-- 10 Jun 2011 12:23 pm --
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
First of all I'd like to know what Bible version you're using. Secondly, what's the reference to that passage?
Last edited by odysseyfan1 on Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Amethystic
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Post by Amethystic »

It's Romans 7:14-19, NIV. And, in response to your other comments, I would like to point out that Paul makes a big distinction regarding sin--that Christians don't want to sin, but they continue sinning, unlike the rest of the world, which fully embraces their sin and makes little attempt to change. At least, that's how I read it.
Last edited by Amethystic on Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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John Chrysostom
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Post by John Chrysostom »

So stealing isn't a sin anymore?
We're not trying to set up rules.
Saying your friend is going to be tossed into heck for lying is making a rule; I mean are you saying you've never lied? I'll also say this, it might not just be a PHC view but most Reformed Evangelicals I know don't believe this; i.e. that anything you do will get you into heaven. Also it's my understanding that Eastern Orthodox Christians don't believe this either. You know who else does agree with you? The Roman Catholics.
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Post by Termite »

odysseyfan1 wrote: Yes, I think I agree with that. :) God isn't an angry ogre sitting on a cloud waiting to strike us with lightning when we mess up.
Except when we sin then die shortly after without repenting, cause then He tosses us into heck? :P You're contradicting yourself, buddy.
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Post by Dr. Watson »

odysseyfan1 wrote:
Bookworm wrote:First, are you saying that Christians do or don’t still sin?
If Christians are consistently sinning (especially when they don't make restitutions) then something is obviously wrong. Take, for example, what my friend said: "I lied today, but I know I'm going to Heaven." How can that be possible? The Bible says that all liars shall be cast into a lake of fire.
It is possible because as Christians, we are justified. Christ's righteousness is now given to us; when God the Father looks at us He sees the perfect obedience of the Son. That is THE ONLY way we are going to heaven. We cannot be holy enough or righteous enough to obtain or maintain our salvation.


odysseyfan1 wrote:
Knight Fisher wrote:You cannot stop. You will sin again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.
That is not true. We are called to be holy!
OF1, there is a difference what we are called to be and what we actually are. God calls us to be holy as Christians--I am 100% in agreement with you there. However, we cannot obtain that perfect holiness in this lifetime! The Lord is constantly sanctifying us as we grow and mature.


I am concerned that you are adding on to the gospel. In other words, you seem to be claiming that repentance and belief in Jesus Christ is not enough. You seem to say that even though someone may have been "saved" they still need to maintain holiness or make sure they ask forgiveness for every sin in order to get to heaven. Now, I am the LAST person to say that a Christian can act anyway they please; after all, the Lord has written His law in our hearts and we have a new desire to obey and please Him. HOWEVER, even if we sin, even if we do not ask forgiveness for a particular sin, we are still under the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

If a professing Christian continues in sin and does not care an iota about it and has no concern for pleasing Jesus, then that is an indicator that the Holy Spirit has never regenerated that person and he has never had true saving faith to begin with. It does NOT mean that he lost his salvation because of his sin; it means his profession is false.
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Post by Knight Fisher »

I completely agree with Dr. Watson. :yes: Unless by the last paragraph you mean once a christian always a christian. If you do mean that, I agree 75% with you. If you mean by that they probably weren't a christian but could of been one that has fallen away. Then I agree 100% with you :)
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Post by Steve »

I spent 5:30 to Midnight at a huge Christian rock festival; headbanging and moshing. If I had died on the way home, would you think I'd go to Heaven or heck?
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Post by ric »

Steve wrote:I spent 5:30 to Midnight at a huge Christian rock festival; headbanging and moshing. If I had died on the way home, would you think I'd go to Heaven or heck?
lol...this.
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Post by odysseyfan1 »

Dr. Watson wrote: HOWEVER, even if we sin, even if we do not ask forgiveness for a particular sin, we are still under the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
I think this depends on whether God tells us to repent or not. Obviously when we gte saved for the first time, you can't make restitution for every sin you've ever committed.
However, we cannot obtain that perfect holiness in this lifetime! The Lord is constantly sanctifying us as we grow and mature.
I don't think that we can obtain perfect holiness. Not the perfection of God or even of Adam. What I'm trying to say is that people can't willingly sin and go to Heaven.
I spent 5:30 to Midnight at a huge Christian rock festival; headbanging and moshing. If I had died on the way home, would you think I'd go to Heaven or heck?
What's "head-banging" and "moshing" mean? No, if God hasn't told you to stop listening to rock then you wouldn't go to heck. I'd appreciate it if everyone would stop asking whether I think they would go to heck or not. If anybody does, I will not answer. It's God's job, not mine, to decide where people go when they die.
Ayn Rand wrote:Saying your friend is going to be tossed into heck for lying is making a rule;
Actually that's God's rule, not mine. "All liars shall be cast into the lake of fire." ;)
Termite wrote:Except when we sin then die shortly after without repenting, cause then He tosses us into heck?
If we said "No, I'm not going to repent." If we were on our way to repent or something, then no.
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
In response to the above verses:
Albert Barnes wrote:The remainder of this chapter has been the subject of no small degree of controversy. The question has been whether it describes the state of Paul before his conversion, or afterward.
We're not sure whether he was talking about before he was saved or after. But when you read 1st John (I'm still waiting for someone to explain all those verses by the way ;) ) it's pretty obvious that you can't willingly and consistently sin without repenting and be a Christian.
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Post by Knight Fisher »

First off please do not use quotes not from the Bible. As I don't think anyone here will accept them. I am sure that he is talking about after his conversion. Read it in context. I happened to do so this morning. If it was before his conversion he couldn't do good period.
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Post by John Chrysostom »

odysseyfan1 wrote:I'd appreciate it if everyone would stop asking whether I think they would go to heck or not. If anybody does, I will not answer. It's God's job, not mine, to decide where people go when they die.
odysseyfan1 wrote:Take, for example, what my friend said: "I lied today, but I know I'm going to Heaven." How can that be possible? The Bible says that all liars shall be cast into a lake of fire.
So which is it? It's God's job or you know your friend is going to heck?
odysseyfan1 wrote:it's pretty obvious that you can't willingly and consistently sin without repenting and be a Christian.
I totally agree, I think most people are disagreeing with you because this isn't the normal Protestant view. Now that being said I disagree with how you put this belief into practice; i.e. focusing on enforcing outward change through rules about dress and hair or music choices. I think that if you focus on an inner change the outward changes will flow from them not the other way around.

As for quotes not from the Bible, I have no problems with them, I will accept good quotes that inform the discussion.
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Post by odysseyfan1 »

Ayn Rand wrote:
odysseyfan1 wrote:I'd appreciate it if everyone would stop asking whether I think they would go to heck or not. If anybody does, I will not answer. It's God's job, not mine, to decide where people go when they die.
odysseyfan1 wrote:Take, for example, what my friend said: "I lied today, but I know I'm going to Heaven." How can that be possible? The Bible says that all liars shall be cast into a lake of fire.
So which is it? It's God's job or you know your friend is going to heck?
odysseyfan1 wrote:it's pretty obvious that you can't willingly and consistently sin without repenting and be a Christian.
I totally agree, I think most people are disagreeing with you because this isn't the normal Protestant view. Now that being said I disagree with how you put this belief into practice; i.e. focusing on enforcing outward change through rules about dress and hair or music choices. I think that if you focus on an inner change the outward changes will flow from them not the other way around.

As for quotes not from the Bible, I have no problems with them, I will accept good quotes that inform the discussion.
So which is it? It's God's job or you know your friend is going to heck?
Why does everybody keep saying this? Did I ever say that my friend was going to heck? I think he's confused. He needs someone to show him these verses. Unfortunately, he didn't want to discuss it for very long. :(
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John Chrysostom
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Post by John Chrysostom »

You friend said he was going to Heaven even though he lied and you said "How can that be possible?" If it's not possible for him to go to Heaven then there's only one place he can go. Maybe this isn't what you meant by this statement, if so please clarify.
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Post by odysseyfan1 »

First off please do not use quotes not from the Bible. As I don't think anyone here will accept them. I am sure that he is talking about after his conversion. Read it in context. I happened to do so this morning. If it was before his conversion he couldn't do good period.
Albert Barnes is a Bible scholar. Probably much more knowledgable than any of us. I think most people will accept his quotes.
You friend said he was going to Heaven even though he lied and you said "How can that be possible?" If it's not possible for him to go to Heaven then there's only one place he can go. Maybe this isn't what you meant by this statement, if so please clarify.
We didn't really talk about this. He said it, and I didn't say anything to him about it. (I think) Only later did I remember "all liars shall be cast into the lake of fire."
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Knight Fisher
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Post by Knight Fisher »

OK I wont accept it. Because if he agrees with you I think he is wrong.
Last edited by Knight Fisher on Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sherlock »

Ayn Rand wrote:So stealing isn't a sin anymore?
We're not trying to set up rules.
Saying your friend is going to be tossed into heck for lying is making a rule; I mean are you saying you've never lied? I'll also say this, it might not just be a PHC view but most Reformed Evangelicals I know don't believe this; i.e. that anything you do will get you into heaven. Also it's my understanding that Eastern Orthodox Christians don't believe this either. You know who else does agree with you? The Roman Catholics.

This thread is a mess! I just read through it for fun while trying to kill time at work. ;)

A couple thoughts:

1) Ignorance of a sin doesn't affect the nature of the sin itself, it just affects your culpability for it. So, in the stealing example, it doesn't change the fact that stealing is a sin, just the fact that you aren't morally culpable for it. Most people generally agree that in order to be culpable for a sin you have to know something is wrong and choose to do it anyway.

2) I'm not sure what Ayn was referring to abvoe regarding setting up rules. I know my denomination (Roman Catholic) believes that people seperate themselves from God through the use of free will. So, essentially, if I commit a sin and die unrepentant I go to heck. It's pretty straightforward.
Last edited by Sherlock on Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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